Mike Brown. Post-Exit: From Chaos to Clarity
Episode - 51
Mike Brown. Post-Exit: From Chaos to Clarity
Mike Brown's post-exit journey led him from chaos to clarity, but not right away. He had to go through a painful divorce, a business failure, financial losses and emotional turmoil.
Today we are talking about what he's learned and why he decided to dedicate himself to coaching. Mike, I'd love you to walk me through step by step, what happened to you in those first few weeks after the exit? How you felt, how you thought?
What We Discussed:
00:00:00 – Introduction
00:00:37 – The Aftermath of Selling a Business
00:02:07 – Reality Hits: The Post-Exit Crisis
00:03:19 – The Connection Between Entrepreneurship and Divorce
00:05:00 – Chasing Achievement vs. Finding Purpose
00:06:40 – Could He Have Saved His Marriage?
00:08:33 – What’s Next After the Exit?
00:09:59 – Why Coaching and Why It Almost Didn’t Happen
00:10:34 – A Costly Distraction: A Failed Investment
00:12:30 – The Emotional Weight of Money and Investing
00:15:00 – A Brutal Financial Loss: Losing $100K a Month
00:18:00 – The Transition from Founder to Investor
00:20:15 – The Importance of Financial Safety Nets
00:24:15 – Balancing Risk and Stability
00:29:00 – The Concept of Wealth Beyond Money
00:30:06 – Unlimited Freedom vs. Purpose
00:32:03 – Defining Purpose and Service to Others
00:36:00 – The Danger of Retiring Too Early
00:40:00 – Lessons from Childhood: How Early Experiences Shaped His Drive
00:46:00 – Parenting and Entrepreneurship
00:52:25 – Post-Exit Traps to Avoid
00:57:45 – Rebuilding Structure and Identity After an Exit
01:06:00 – Final Lessons: The Power of Stillness
01:07:22 – How Mike Wants to Be Remembered
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[00:00:00] Anastasia Koroleva: Welcome to Exit Paradox, where we explore what actually happens after a successful business exit. I am your host, Anastasia Koroleva. Mike [00:00:15] Brown's post-exit journey led him from chaos to clarity, but not right away. He had to go through a painful divorce, a business failure, financial losses and emotional turmoil.
[00:00:29] Mike Brown: If pain is a great teacher, [00:00:30] unfortunately, you know, as painful as that experience was, you know, now I look at it as one of the greatest gifts in my life.
[00:00:37] Anastasia Koroleva: Today we are talking about what he's learned and why he decided to dedicate himself to coaching. Mike, [00:00:45] I'd love you to walk me through step by step, what happened to you in those first few weeks after the exit? How you felt, how you thought?
[00:00:58] Mike Brown: Yeah. I mean, I think that [00:01:00] selling a company when we're young enough to enjoy it is one of the greatest gifts that we can give ourselves, because so many of us in society are in this trap of pleasure, delaying and taking space, and we work our whole lives until we retire. And then most [00:01:15] of us are too sick and too worn down to even enjoy it. And so I can say that the day I sold my company was the single greatest night of sleep in my life. Because all this work, all of all the years of blood, sweat, determination, [00:01:30] all kind of culminated in that single moment. And in that I think that there was a little bit of overexcitement and euphoria [00:01:45] and, and I truly thought I would never be unhappy again. Like, I thought that I had finally saw I had done everything that society told me to do. Right. I'd built and sold an eight figure company. I tested myself in combat. I worked hard in school, like everything led up to that moment. [00:02:00] And, you know, society tells us if you just have enough money, you're going to be happy for the rest of your life. And I think I really believed that.
[00:02:07] Mike Brown: And so after that initial wave of of euphoria, then [00:02:15] things started to get real because not only did I sell my company, I also exited my first marriage at the same time. And so I was I was dealing with a lot of chaos. And so immediately my net worth gets halved. And you know, now [00:02:30] I'm a 50 over 50 co-parent learning how to not be there for my kids every single night. And really, at the same time, this underlying anxiety of like, who am I without my company? And the thing that happens to Post-exit founders is everybody starts saying, oh, I can't wait to see [00:02:45] what you do next. I'm like, next. Like, that was really hard. Like, I have to do something bigger and better now just just to stay on the treadmill. And that pressure was really, really intense. And, you know, I found myself putting a tremendous amount [00:03:00] of pressure on myself to figure out something bigger and better and really probably rushed into. And even though I knew that I wanted to take a break and I knew that I was exhausted, I probably pushed myself a little too hard, a little too fast, [00:03:15] given all the chaos that was happening.
[00:03:19] Anastasia Koroleva: Can we slow down here? Because I'm very interested in the connection between you building the business and your divorce.
[00:03:28] Mike Brown: Yeah. So. [00:03:30] When we you know, I think, you know, I met my my ex-wife when I was in my early 20s, when I was in the Navy. And the world [00:03:45] at that point, I think, is very flat. Everyone has unlimited potential. Everyone you know it. You know, we're. None of us are making money. We're just out of college. And so you know, the the potential gap I think is, is not [00:04:00] apparent. But as I became more and more successful you know, the chasm between the two of us just just grew and grew. And, you know, for me, it was really, you know, when I sold that company, I realized [00:04:15] that there was a lot more out there for me in life and that I wanted to become, you know, a really someone who. And there was there was a lot wrapped up into this. So I also started down the personal development [00:04:30] train in, in 2017 with a mentor, Philip McKernan, who's, who's been my longtime coach. And I've learned a tremendous amount from him. So I was really kind of going through this process of waking up and moving from type A [00:04:45] military entrepreneur, Ironman triathlete to realizing there's a whole lot more out there than achievement.
[00:04:52] Mike Brown: And, you know, the thing is, is like I thought that reaching the pinnacle of achievement [00:05:00] would make me happy. And I woke up and I was. I was no different. So. Okay. Now what? Like, if that if all of these things that society told me it was going to make me happy didn't. Now what's out there for me? And as I started going down that path, [00:05:15] it really upset the balance in the relationship. Because I think in many ways my ex-wife was very comfortable in that paradigm. And I was changing fast. And, you know, when we go through that, that change that, that [00:05:30] stepping into personal development, that asking bigger questions, it can be quite destabilizing. And so, you know, I can take ownership of the fact that, yes, these were all positive moves, but I think probably from the outside it was, you [00:05:45] know, my behavior could have looked erratic. It could have, you know, I was I was asking big questions and seeking big answers. And that's quite destabilizing both from a from a personal level but also from a relationship level. So things deteriorated pretty quickly.
[00:06:00] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah, [00:06:00] I lost my first marriage after an exit too, so I can very much relate to it. And it happens so often. People don't like talking about it. I'm sure you know lots of cases as well. But families [00:06:15] often become the first victims of this whole post-exit crisis, if you like. So can I ask you, like, if you look back, do you think you should have done something [00:06:30] different to protect your family? Or actually you feel it was meant to be and it was in a way, the good thing?
[00:06:40] Mike Brown: Yeah. This is this is a great question and one that I've really sat with a lot [00:06:45] ever since. And, you know, the reality is, is that I think we love, especially in Western culture, the idea of of free will. But the more and more I've I've uncovered, I really actually feel a [00:07:00] pull toward deterministic outcomes, meaning that it happened in the only possible way that it could have. And for a long time I carried a lot of guilt because, you know, once it started unraveling, things happened really fast. And you [00:07:15] know, I armchair quarterback and look back and say, woulda, coulda, shoulda. I could have taken things more smoothly. I could have let this thing take, take a more natural course. But the reality is, is that you know, once [00:07:30] I made that shift, it was really on a collision course with reality. And there was there was no other way I could have acted in that moment. And I think that something Brene Brown says, which is, you're doing the best you could with the information [00:07:45] that you have. I can really look back and say, hey, you know, I was in survival mode. I was in fight or flight mode. And even though you know, sure, things could have been smoother. The outcome would have been the exact same, and it happened the only way [00:08:00] that it could have. And, you know, fortunately, I've been able to look back and take the lessons that I needed from that time and really forgive myself for not doing things smoothly, because the reality is life is messy. And I [00:08:15] had held it all together for 38 years at that point. And then, you know, once the dam broke, there was no keeping things together, there was no keeping up appearances. And there was a lot in that for me of learning to share my messiness and and just [00:08:30] accept things as they are.
[00:08:33] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah, yeah, I completely understand that. And you moved on to to the next stage of your life with those, with those lessons. Okay. So let's move on [00:08:45] and talk about what you tried to do while you were looking for that next big thing that could keep you busy, because you mentioned you were under a lot of pressure from both inside and outside to find the next big thing.
[00:08:59] Mike Brown: Yeah. [00:09:00] So you know, I had been a startup investor for many years. I really loved mentoring early stage founders. And so I thought coaching would be a natural extension of what I of that, that journey. And [00:09:15] so, you know, even before I sold I started taking on clients here and there. And, and the reality is, is that I knew that coaching was my path and that I had the capacity and the gifts to [00:09:30] be a great coach. But I got scared. I got scared of who I would have to become in order to step in and own that power. And I started feeling imposter syndrome, and I started falling into this idea that, well, if I if I bought [00:09:45] and sold another company, then I would finally be worthy of telling other people what to do, because I think coaching is such an interesting path because it's just going to it's going to be a mirror and bring up all of your insecurities because because the whole idea of the fact that, [00:10:00] like, who's qualified to give anybody else advice unless you're a narcissist is really prescient, I think, for people stepping into coaching. And so that was that was very real for me. And so I bought this distressed company really [00:10:15] as a distraction for who I would have to become to become a great coach. I knew I would have to get better at boundary setting. I knew I would have to get better at protecting my energy. I knew I would have to build a personal brand and start stepping into the spotlight. And all of those things were so terrifying that it just seemed easier, [00:10:30] maybe to jump back in and build another company.
[00:10:34] Anastasia Koroleva: Oh wow. That's fascinating. So how soon did you realize that it was just an escape?
[00:10:41] Mike Brown: It's a great question. I mean the way it went [00:10:45] down is the two founders actually came on as clients, and at that time, my promise to clients was, hey, sign up for coaching. And then if I believe in your company, I'll invest in your company. Well, what that really [00:11:00] was, was a way for me not to own my true value. My my value was not financial. My value was in, you know, the wisdom that I had earned over the years of building and exiting my own company and making, you know, all of the investments and mentoring founders. [00:11:15] But again, I think there is a real hesitation to step in and say, hey, my value is actually not in my net worth. And so I offered that as a carrot to attract clients. The problem is it attracted the wrong kind of clients, right? It attracted [00:11:30] clients that were desperate for investment and couldn't find it anywhere else. And it really blurred the boundaries. Right? Because now I have a vested interest in seeing this person succeed. And the default mode was to just inject money to help them get where they want to go, rather than actually hold [00:11:45] the boundaries and help them become the best version of themselves. This step into their power to to run their business. And so these guys came on as clients, and I immediately stroked a $200,000 check and realized [00:12:00] that I was in way over my head. But rather than unwinding it and just taking the loss, I actually bought their company on the brink of bankruptcy.
[00:12:10] Anastasia Koroleva: Okay. But it could be a good financial decision. You [00:12:15] think you just didn't make a good financial decision, or you or you think it has much more to do with what you were going through emotionally transitioning into your new role or purpose, [00:12:30] being a coach.
[00:12:30] Mike Brown: Yeah, I think very much both. I think there was two major forces at play. One was this kind of imposter syndrome for being a coach that I was talking about. The second is I had a really broken relationship to money. In my in my first [00:12:45] business we entered, so I was in Oil and Gas Investor and started that company in 2013. And it was the best time in the history of oil and gas to be in oil and gas. The the entire Permian Basin was exploding with new growth [00:13:00] based on on horizontal drilling and fracking technology that were previously unlocking reserves that weren't available before. And so a rising tide lifts all boats. And we were in the middle of a gold rush and made a lot of money very quickly. [00:13:15] And in doing so, you know, we I think it's common knowledge that, you know, when we're building a company, when you're in startup mode, you wear all the hats, you burn the boats, you're always betting on yourself. And then as you move into [00:13:30] scale up, now you need to build new skill sets like hiring and and delegation and setting the vision and holding accountability. And the same thing comes when when we talk about building wealth is like you start as an accumulator of wealth, [00:13:45] but eventually you need to shift your mindset to being a defender of wealth. And I totally failed in that. I was deploying capital as rapidly as it came in. I had this very easy come, easy go, high risk, high reward type mentality. And [00:14:00] once the money for my company stopped rolling in, I just kept going in that default mode. And so, you know, I had a lot of opportunities to learn the lesson. But unfortunately I love learning the hard way. And really it took a [00:14:15] failed investment, bringing me to my knees to recognize that my relationship with money was broken.
[00:14:21] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah. I remember reading that story of yours, and you mentioned that you were losing like 100,000 a month [00:14:30] at some point on that investment.
[00:14:34] Mike Brown: Yeah, it was brutal. So, you know, and you're right, like, I don't want to discount my skills as an investor. You know, it should have been a quick 12 to 18 month turnaround [00:14:45] where I could have five x my money and, you know, it looked on the surface like I just needed to clean up the balance sheet, eliminate some debt, restructure, you know, slim down the team and and build some efficiencies. And then, you know, right after I [00:15:00] closed there was a lot of e-commerce companies that were reliant on, on Facebook as their primary acquisition channel. And this one was was squarely in that camp. And the iOS 14 update came and all of a sudden, [00:15:15] you know, we were getting four and a half to to four return on ad spend. And that got cut to 1 to 1 and a half overnight. And so, you know, revenue went from 350, 400 K a month to 150 K a month with the same ad spend. [00:15:30] And so it spiraled out of control really quickly. And I knew really early on that this was a lost cause. You know, something I pride myself on is my ability to, see and think and distributions of outcomes. [00:15:45] I'm a natural handicapper and so I think most entrepreneurs have a burn. The boats put their head down and they're going to succeed at all costs mentality. I think more like an investor where I just need to win six out of ten times, right? I need to win more often than I [00:16:00] lose. And I'm okay with cutting losers. But in this case, I had taken on investments from some of my friends and I really didn't want to let them down. And so I stayed a whole lot longer than I should have. I should have cut immediately and just faced the [00:16:15] fact that this was never going to work in this new paradigm. But that's certainly easier said than done, I think.
[00:16:22] Anastasia Koroleva: Did you feel you didn't quite have the skill to say no often enough at that time?
[00:16:28] Mike Brown: Absolutely. Yeah. You [00:16:30] know, there was there was also a deep sense of because, look, this, this, this default mode had always worked for me, right. I could get myself out of any situation, and I had pushed myself to the brink many, many times [00:16:45] and always found a way at the ninth hour to pull a rabbit out of a hat and make things better. And that worked really well for me until it didn't. And so, yeah, there was a deep sense of responsibility to the company, to the team, to my investors. [00:17:00] And even though I knew in my gut what the right answer was, I was unable to set that boundary. And that was really, you know, looking back like that is the lesson that that stands out the most for me is it forced me to get [00:17:15] really good at boundary setting. And as you know, as a coach, you know, if if you go too deep and have an emotional attachment to an outcome for a client, that can be really exhausting and a drain, a total energetic drain, and it allows [00:17:30] you not to show up for other clients, right, or for yourself. And so it was it was really that experience that allowed me to become a much better coach and a much better human, because I really learned the ultimate lesson in boundary setting.
[00:17:44] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah, but, [00:17:45] you know, I've now talked to hundreds of exited founders, and one of the most typical pattern is that people admit that they go down financially before they go up. You know, we all tend to learn from [00:18:00] our own mistakes as we are transitioning from a founder to an investor. And it sounds like you had to go through that as well.
[00:18:07] Mike Brown: Yeah. Pain is a great teacher, unfortunately. You know, I as as painful as that experience [00:18:15] was, you know, now I look at it as one of the greatest gifts of my life. And, yeah, I think I carried a certain arrogance that only someone who's never lost could have. And, you know, it taught me a lot about empathy, a lot about [00:18:30] understanding that, like, hey, you know, you can't always just pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You can't always just brute force your way out of any situation, and sometimes there are external forces beyond your control that that, you know, you can't look in the mirror and [00:18:45] say, you know, I can get out of this thing. And what a lesson and what a gift.
[00:18:51] Anastasia Koroleva: Absolutely. You know, I remember doing lots of angel investing early on after the first exit and when those investments [00:19:00] turned out to be bad decisions, I that's when, for the first time, I started appreciating the difference between cash flow and the value of assets. And I would be curious to hear [00:19:15] how you feel now about that.
[00:19:17] Mike Brown: Yeah. I you know, the thing is, I started angel investing almost immediately after I started making money in my company. And the reason I was doing that is because I thought that's what rich people did. And we have [00:19:30] such a hero culture around venture capital and private equity and and, you know, even when we look at information out there about how ultra high net worth people structure their portfolios, you know, their alternatives tend to be the biggest allocation [00:19:45] of their portfolio, you know, 35, 30%. And so I look at that information and I go, okay, well that must be the most important category. But what I failed to understand was they had sequentially filled up their safety bucket first. So I was swinging for the fences without [00:20:00] ever putting on my own oxygen mask. And, you know, really resulted in disaster. But I think, I mean, I see so many founders going down this road is, you know, the minute they sell, they become an angel investor without building that protective reserve. And, you know, that [00:20:15] that's kind of why I stepped into what I'm doing now is to to help people shortcut that pain and go, hey, you know what? If you build this protective reserve, if you if you build cash flowing assets that cover your spending for the rest of your life, once you do that now with the next dollar, you can [00:20:30] swing for the fences because your life and your legacy is protected forever. But if you start doing that beforehand, you actually risk having to start from zero. And and you know, I very nearly had to do that.
[00:20:43] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah. I [00:20:45] find that what many of us miss and I, I did as well after my exit, is that as much as we want to find that new purpose, as much as we miss being in the game and in action, if we don't take care of [00:21:00] our finances and and if we don't establish this safety financially, then actually most likely at some point we'll get so stressed that it will affect the quality of our decisions. And it it will put [00:21:15] our new venture, whatever it is, at a huge risk.
[00:21:19] Mike Brown: Yeah.
[00:21:20] Anastasia Koroleva: What do you think about that?
[00:21:21] Mike Brown: Yeah. That's I mean that is that is a pattern I see play out over and over with the founders that I work with is and it's a classic case of like, what got you here won't [00:21:30] get you there. Like, we're used to betting on ourselves. We're used to going all in and putting our backs against the wall and that for many of us, is kind of a default state of being. Right. Is, you know, when we look at people with a driven personality type, they either have D2. [00:21:45] D4 or D2, d2 gene and high levels of neuropeptide Y. And there's an excellent book by my friend Doug. Brackman called driven that kind of explains the neuroscience of high performance and what happens. When we have [00:22:00] that driven personality type is that when we're in a situation that would send most people into fight or flight, we actually drop into calm in the chaos, and that's when we feel most alive. And that is a really useful evolutionary adaptation, except [00:22:15] for when we're safe and when we're safe, what we do is we manufacture that chaos in order to elicit that high performance. So we get into this cycle of putting our back against the wall, right? Because it's when we feel most alive. And, you know, the reality is, is that we are not wired [00:22:30] for wealth, right? We're not wired for safety. We're not wired to, you know, build a protective reserve in order to swing for the fences. We go all in all the time, and so often it results in disaster.
[00:22:45] Anastasia Koroleva: So. [00:22:45] So you basically think it's our role in in the society like an entrepreneur. Some people are entrepreneurs. Other people do other things. But entrepreneurs are wired to not be safe.
[00:22:59] Mike Brown: Yeah. [00:23:00] I mean, I think I think that, you know, I think we do a tremendous disservice to, to people by you know, again, building this hero culture around entrepreneurship, because the reality is it's not for everybody. Most [00:23:15] people are not wired for the stress and the risk and for most of us, for most founders, I think it's the only way we can operate, right? We're unemployable. We need we thrive on that chaos. But that's just simply not the case for [00:23:30] most people. And so, I mean, I really think it's kind of a process of natural selection is there was no other way for me to be other than betting on myself and being my own boss and everything that comes along with it, right? Like, I, I thrive in that chaos. And you [00:23:45] know, now my my role, I view my, my evolution is how do I engineer just enough chaos to feel alive but keep myself safe?
[00:23:55] Anastasia Koroleva: So I'd love us to talk about this. So you're basically saying [00:24:00] that once you're wired for not having safety, we avoid safety, but we also need it to stabilize our life and to build some sort of normality. I assume Post-exit so [00:24:15] how did you create that balance or integration for your own life?
[00:24:20] Mike Brown: Yeah. I mean, you know, very much as a product of this, of this experience of, of, you know, having a financial windfall that that should have set me for life and then almost [00:24:30] losing everything I was forced to change. And the reality is like, we'll never make a change until the pain of staying the same is greater than the perceived pain of implementing that change. And for me I, you know, I [00:24:45] put my, my back so far against the wall that there was actually no way out other than to learn how to step into stability and create systems to keep, keep myself safe. But one of the most important things, I think is, you know, the tendency is to overcorrect [00:25:00] and go into a mode where I'm building systems for everything and I'm only I'm trying to completely, you know, go against my programming and create all this safety. And then at some point, our subconscious is going to take over and we're going to self-sabotage [00:25:15] again. So what I, what I tell founders that I work with is you need a blow off valve, you need a release valve. So maybe put 90% of your money into safe assets, but take 10% and still swing for the fences and invest in projects that you believe in [00:25:30] and, you know, take some of that risk. So you have kind of an outlet so that you're not taking the lion's share and doing that same thing right where it's disastrous. So so take some amount that you can you can lose and it's not going to affect you and and still [00:25:45] find an outlet for that risk taking nature.
[00:25:49] Anastasia Koroleva: Okay. So so what do you offer to your clients or maybe what what do you do yourself to create that stability and safety.
[00:25:59] Mike Brown: Yeah I mean [00:26:00] the first thing is understanding how wealth actually works and building an engine for stability because the reality is, is, you know, we think linearly, but that's not the way money works. That's [00:26:15] not the way wealth works. Right? Like, it's it's a compound interest curve. And we have a really hard time understanding when we're on the flat part of the curve because our brains are wired to perceive linear, incremental progress. But if [00:26:30] you can charge that wealth engine with a set of assets that pays for your lifestyle spending, now you've created a compound interest vehicle that actually allows you to increase sovereignty as your wealth increases. [00:26:45] Right. Because money, at the end of the day is only useful if it's if it's used as a tool to generate the life that you want to live, ultimately. Right. And that can be from [00:27:00] an impact perspective. That can be from a purpose perspective that can be from, you know, creating time freedom to to spend experiences with the people that you love. But if we're not doing that, if we're if we're just treating money as [00:27:15] the end rather than the means, that's how we get trapped. And so, you know, what I try to do is help people work backwards. And this is, this is exactly the playbook that I did for myself is okay, what is the life that I want to actually live. Who do I want to impact? Like [00:27:30] what? What do I want to create here? You know, on. On with my time on earth. And then I can back into a decision making framework that allows me to use my wealth to build that actual life. And that's essentially creating a life of alignment. [00:27:45] I want to align my values with my money in order to generate the life that I want to live. And that's the framework that I help people solve for.
[00:27:53] Anastasia Koroleva: So what are some of the most effective exercises, or maybe questions that you [00:28:00] ask your clients that you see consistently? Help them break out of this problem of of this natural resistance to safety?
[00:28:10] Mike Brown: Yeah. So one of the first things that I have people do is [00:28:15] define what wealth actually means, because if we're going to talk about building wealth, we need to have an exact definition. And so like when I host a retreat or a workshop, I'll ask for a collective definition of wealth, and it usually starts with something about money. But [00:28:30] we end up with some definition that circles around freedom. So what wealth means to me is freedom in four areas. Freedom of health, freedom of relationships, freedom of time and freedom of mind. And those go in ascending [00:28:45] order. And once I've determined that that wealth really is just increasing freedom, increasing sovereignty, you know, now my favorite question to ask is where am I not free? And that is something I return to. Over and over is [00:29:00] looking at all areas of my life and go, where am I not free? Where am I still beholden to some relationship? Where am I still, you know, beholden to giving up my time where I don't want to? And that's where we can start to work backwards to build that ideal vision.
[00:29:13] Anastasia Koroleva: I [00:29:15] love this. May I challenge you, please? So I've been obsessed about freedom for most of my life, as I think every single entrepreneur out there. And then [00:29:30] at some point I realized that actually, when I did achieve all the freedom I could think about, what I really, really, really wanted was to limit that freedom and to commit to a purpose [00:29:45] and have clarity and channel all that energy I had towards that purpose. And I had to admit to myself that I actually do not want to have unlimited freedom anymore. I want to have [00:30:00] it limited by my own will. How would you think about that?
[00:30:06] Mike Brown: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. Right? Is that, you know, I think I think the first step is doing exactly what you said is creating that unlimited freedom, [00:30:15] and then you get to step into choice. Okay. If I have unlimited time you know, if I, if I have the ability to sit in stillness. Now what gets to start to emerge? And I think what most people find is ultimately [00:30:30] it's not about you. And that was that was very much my journey, is that it felt really fun for a little while to live selfishly and, you know, just pursue things like adventure sports and spending time with my kids and, and all of that stuff is really [00:30:45] impactful. But then I started to feel this itch of like, hey, I've got something greater to to give here. And the minute I stopped making it about me and started making it about service and purpose, then you're right. [00:31:00] I like I'm working harder than I've ever worked, including at my first company right now, creating content, writing, coaching. And and I love it. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with my craft. And, you know, if you'd have told me five [00:31:15] years ago that that I would be working harder than ever, I would have laughed you out of the room because I thought I thought it was game over and I would never have to work again. But now it's instead of a place from have to it's I get to and so my I love having clients [00:31:30] and this is something I've done for a long time is is choosing a magic word for the year. So choosing a single word that will help you embody the life that you want to create. And for me, my word this year is purpose. And so every morning it's like, how can I live into my [00:31:45] purpose? And and you're right, like when when you're stepping into that service now all of a sudden I've created constraints so that I can generate my highest and best self in order to live into that purpose.
[00:32:00] Anastasia Koroleva: So [00:32:00] how would you define purpose?
[00:32:03] Mike Brown: Yeah. For me my purpose at least right now. So. So I think it's really important is that you know, a [00:32:15] lot of times people go, hey, I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life. That, to me is really heavy. So I try to have I try to have as broad definitions and give myself the flexibility to change over time. But right now, you know my purpose is helping other people [00:32:30] wake up to what's important, because I feel like the universe gave me that gift of of, you know, this all of these experiences that that resulted in realizing that I was chasing the wrong things. And so being able to give that gift to other people [00:32:45] is my highest purpose, at least for right now. And so you know, I really encourage people to, to have whatever purpose they feel is, is central and hold it very loosely. And so I've tried to define it as broadly [00:33:00] as possible. And so, you know, helping people wake up could mean in my work, but it also could mean with friends, it could mean with my family. Like it has a broad enough definition where I'm given the flexibility and adaptability to move and change as I grow, and my purpose [00:33:15] can grow along with it.
[00:33:18] Anastasia Koroleva: Okay, I think that's wonderful. Really inspiring. So, Mike, a few years ago, I thought that the biggest problem, post-exit is [00:33:30] that so many people do not stop and take a break and think through things and do some introspection. And today I'm actually thinking that the biggest problem is something else. It's the fact that many [00:33:45] people stop and instead of taking a break, actually retire. Because when we retire, then we create this whole system of habits supporting our comfortable [00:34:00] life. And it's extremely hard to break out of that and find that purpose which you just so beautifully described, that inspires you, that gets you excited, that you're obsessing about. I'm curious if you came across clients who are having that problem [00:34:15] of being stuck in a golden cage and feeling their life is empty, even though their lifestyle is beautiful. And how do you guide these people out of that problem?
[00:34:24] Mike Brown: Yeah. So like I mentioned earlier, I do think selling a company and [00:34:30] sitting in stillness is is really important because, you know, the reality is when we look at that same driven personality type that leads us to be founders, a lot of times our edge is driven from darkness. It's driven from our our past [00:34:45] traumas. It's driven from you know, pain that we are running from. And we're we're looking to fill that hole with external validation and success. And, you know, all the trappings of that come with that. And so, you [00:35:00] know, I love the book Second Mountain by David Brooks. Whereas our first mountain business is typically, you know, building from a place of lack building from external validation building from trying to fill a hole that only you can fill. And so taking that space, [00:35:15] I think is really important because a lot of us, we're busyness like a badge of honor. And I hear a lot of times, you know, founders say, oh, I could never sit still. And when I whenever I hear that, my question is, what are you trying not to feel right? And I can tell you, there was a lot of things [00:35:30] in my life that I was trying not to feel by throwing myself at work, by by trying to fill that hole with external validation. And so having that time and that space to actually start to lean in and feel the things that I was maybe suppressing or, [00:35:45] you know, I mean, anything from, you know, PTSD that, that you know, that I was not willing to acknowledge or, you know, this, this constant need to prove myself, like all of those things came front and center during that period of stillness. [00:36:00]
[00:36:00] Mike Brown: But you have to lean in. So. So I think you've nailed it, right. If you're just creating comfort, there's actually no space to lean into to those those feelings that we maybe we've been suppressing for a long time. So, you know, I recommend that everyone [00:36:15] takes some space at least six months, but do the work. Lean into the feelings like figure out what it is that's driving you to never be able to sit still. And then on the backside of that, now let's start stepping into purpose. Now let's think about what building from light, what building [00:36:30] from purpose can actually look like. And you know, I do think that there is a trap in just creating so much comfort that you you're now just creating a new way of distracting yourself. It might have been your company before, and now maybe it's pleasure. [00:36:45] So I think you have to do the work in association with sitting in stillness.
[00:36:50] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I'm curious, how did you go through this journey of becoming less selfish? Because [00:37:00] that is what we have to do to find purpose.
[00:37:05] Mike Brown: Yeah. You know, a again, pain is a great teacher. And you know, I think it really started unwinding when I found [00:37:15] that the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow wasn't what I thought it was going to be and that, you know, no amount of achievement, no amount of of trophies in Iron Mans, no amount of proving myself in combat no amount of money was ever going to fill this [00:37:30] hole. And so, you know, once I found that that was empty. Okay, now what do I need to replace it? And so I started asking those bigger questions and super grateful to you know, have a coach and mentor guiding [00:37:45] me through that process, you know, going to therapy, you know, kind of doing engaging in all these different modalities that allow us to start uncovering those, those bigger questions and start repatterning that edge from, you know, a place of lack to [00:38:00] a place of purpose.
[00:38:05] Anastasia Koroleva: The therapy versus coaching. What did it give you? Therapy comparing to coaching?
[00:38:13] Mike Brown: Yeah. I mean, look I [00:38:15] think therapy is a is a really useful tool in the tool kit. But, you know, I recommend that, that people try multiple modalities because you know, while therapy is amazing for identifying and [00:38:30] perhaps healing some of some of our childhood patterns, you know, therapists are bound by guidelines. And you know, you could end up in a therapist's office for years and not make any real progress because they don't have the ability [00:38:45] to kind of drop the hammer. And that's where coaching was more effective for me, because, you know, I think a great coach kind of wears both hats. They can ask really good questions and help you understand your patterns and gain some insight as to where they came from. [00:39:00] But at some point they can go, hey, you're full of shit, stop it! Like and really, you know, push a lot harder. And I think for high performers, that can be really valuable as long as it's wielded with intention.
[00:39:15] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah. [00:39:15] You know, I have to say, for me, the very idea of going back and reliving the trauma and finding what was wrong in our childhood. For me, that never worked. I actually think it's [00:39:30] it sometimes it's better to focus on something much more. Much bigger, much more important that you care so much more about, that this trauma may just dissolve because it will be small in comparison.
[00:39:45] Mike Brown: Yeah, [00:39:45] I think that's that's totally valid. And I can tell you you know, recently I've had one of my most significant breakthroughs since starting this work a decade ago. And essentially what I found was, [00:40:00] you know, I would be in, in coaching retreats or in the therapist office. And, you know, normally we do memory association. We go back to childhood memories that are particularly painful. And I would be accessing these memories of my mom yelling at me or being made fun of by kids [00:40:15] or whatever, whatever it is. And I would see other people in the room getting really emotional as they access these memories. And you know, when I was honest with myself, I was like, yeah, I mean that that was painful. It wasn't a pleasant experience, but I didn't have this deep [00:40:30] ocean of pain that it a lot of other people seem to experience. And, you know, there was a point where I kind of started giving up or thinking like, maybe, maybe I'm, you know, just not wired to feel that kind of emotion or whatever. What [00:40:45] I actually found was that you know, my pattern was created by a, a much more meta trauma, which is kind of, you know, I when I was in first grade, my parents got called into the principal's office and they said, hey, your son [00:41:00] just took his first achievement test or IQ test or whatever it was, and he tested off the charts, and we're not going to tell him.
[00:41:07] Mike Brown: I actually didn't find this out until I was 30 years old, but I had a distinct sense of kind of permanent [00:41:15] othering because, you know, I knew things that other people my age didn't know. Right. I was I was able to intuit things or just have answers that other people had to work through or study for. And, you know, kind of sort of like how there's [00:41:30] there's very little sympathy for Post-exit founders. You know, there's there's very little sympathy for people who are considered gifted. And while you know that giftedness, that intelligence is, is a is a massive [00:41:45] advantage, it can also be a burden. And so, you know, as I found this kind of permanent state of rejection and aloneness because I wasn't able to really connect with my peers or be seen for who I truly [00:42:00] am. You know, I started this this process of chameleon. I would meet people where they are. I would modulate my answers. I would I would always try to be fitting in, and I didn't realize kind of the the pain or the deep ocean of sadness [00:42:15] that was associated there. So for me, finding that emotion was really finding this, this meta permanent state rather than event based traumas, if that makes sense.
[00:42:27] Anastasia Koroleva: Absolutely. Do you think your parents [00:42:30] made the right decision by not telling you about that test?
[00:42:36] Mike Brown: I think that's really hard to to parse out. You know, again, I think they were doing the best they could with the information they had. That was the recommendation they got from the school. So, [00:42:45] you know, I think they were just following whatever protocol they thought was was necessary. And I'm not sure what I would have done with that information early on. So I'm not sure if it would have made any kind of a difference. You [00:43:00] know, but now I think, you know, we see a lot more a huge rise in in helping kids navigate neurodivergence. And [00:43:15] you know, whether that be giftedness, whether that be Asperger's, like whatever, however that manifests for them. And so I think having access to more modern tools or support for, you know, this thing that was again, while a gift, [00:43:30] it was also very othering. And I didn't understand why. So I think that, you know, fast forwarding 40 years now, to me, I think we've taken a massive step in the right direction in giving support for neurodivergent children. [00:43:45]
[00:43:46] Anastasia Koroleva: How do you go about this with your own kids? Do you encourage them, for example, to be entrepreneurs? Do you encourage them to be different?
[00:43:56] Mike Brown: Yeah, I mean, this, this this goes back to what [00:44:00] I was saying is that I think we do people a disservice. And I hear so many founders and entrepreneurs going like, oh, how do I teach my kids to be entrepreneurs? And I think entrepreneurship selects you. I really I think that it's it's it's probably inherent with personality [00:44:15] types. And so I don't encourage my kids to be entrepreneurs. I actually encourage them to figure out whatever their own path is. And I want to give them the tools. I want to give them the access. I want to teach them about entrepreneurship. So, you know, [00:44:30] I'll have conversations with my son and be like, hey, you know, do you see any other kids driving to school in a Lamborghini? No. Okay, well, let's talk about how that happened. Let's talk about why, you know, what I had to do in order to to reach this, this kind of life. And [00:44:45] then we talk about whether that feels like a fit for him or not. And we had a great conversation recently. I was like, hey, do you think you would rather work for yourself or work for a big company? And he was like, oh, I think I'd rather work for a big company. And like, great, like that's that's really good to know. Because if I try to force you into [00:45:00] this box of entrepreneurship, you're going to be fundamentally unhappy because your personality doesn't actually fit that.
[00:45:06] Anastasia Koroleva: But you still model that behavior to your kids. Probably especially to your son.
[00:45:14] Mike Brown: Yeah. Yeah [00:45:15] certainly. And you know I really view. Go ahead.
[00:45:20] Anastasia Koroleva: I know whether you like it or not, your son will be looking at you as a model.
[00:45:26] Mike Brown: Yeah. And this is, I think, critically important. It's a distinction [00:45:30] that I don't think a lot of parents get is, you know, kids pick up on what you do, not what you say. You can. You can speak at them all day long, but they're actually just going to learn modeled behaviors. And so what can I do to prepare my [00:45:45] kids is live my best life, possibly, and stand in my truth and show them that I am living into my purpose and living into my values. I can model a good relationship. Right. So I can I can tell them what a good relationship looks like, or I can just show them. And what [00:46:00] I view my role as a parent is actually helping them create their own sovereignty. So, so my my first principles as a parent is that my children are sovereign beings. They actually know what's best for them. They have their own internal wisdom. And my job is just to set the [00:46:15] boundaries and help them ask really good questions so that they can unlock what's already inherent within them.
[00:46:22] Anastasia Koroleva: How old are they now?
[00:46:23] Mike Brown: My son is 12 and my daughter is seven, and she's a little wrecking ball. She's she's [00:46:30] a little mini me.
[00:46:33] Anastasia Koroleva: Because I have to say that I clearly see the pattern that many successful entrepreneurs, those I talked to who exited their companies, [00:46:45] their parents are or were entrepreneurs as well. So I think that modeling clearly works.
[00:46:54] Mike Brown: Yeah, that's that's that's interesting. You know, I I [00:47:00] would have to sit with that because I actually feel like a lot of my peers and founders that I talked to a lot of times came from nothing or came from parents that that worked, you know, government jobs or teaching jobs or whatever. And their drive was [00:47:15] to to create a better life for themselves. And so that's a that's a really interesting distinction.
[00:47:22] Anastasia Koroleva: But but because what I noticed now is that those who achieved this highest [00:47:30] level of success and actually sold their companies successfully, more often than not have parents who were entrepreneurs. That's just my observation. I don't have enough statistics to support that.
[00:47:43] Mike Brown: Yeah. I mean, and I think that could [00:47:45] totally be true. And I think it probably depends. Right. Like you're talking to a lot of nine multi nine, ten figure founders. And I'm probably playing in more of a different pond [00:48:00] of, you know, more of the, the 5 to 50 million type folks. And so I wouldn't be surprised if there's correlation between the highest levels of success. You know, as we know, it gets really pointy at the top. So I wouldn't be surprised if you know, more [00:48:15] multi nine type figure founders had entrepreneurial parents. And that'd be a really interesting study to actually get data on I'm sure.
[00:48:25] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah. What about your parents?
[00:48:27] Mike Brown: Yeah. So I grew up [00:48:30] in a in a very wealthy town, Midland, Texas which is the second highest income per capita, after Greenwich, Connecticut. And it's due to the oil and gas industry. So I had a lot of wealthy friends, but my parents were not wealthy. My dad was [00:48:45] an engineer for a very large oil company. And, you know, in the 80s and 90s, the oil business was not the same as it is now. And so we had five kids, and money was a struggle my entire life. I mean, I [00:49:00] grew up watching my parents fight every night about money. And you know, my dad is an incredible engineer, but he is very much not an entrepreneur. He is very risk averse. And, you know, he would he would rather be [00:49:15] nosing into spreadsheets all day long than going out and you know, taking risks. And, and so I knew very early that I was much different than my dad. That was, [00:49:30] that was. And for a long time, I probably thought you know, I probably didn't understand why he was so risk averse. But now, again, that that I don't view entrepreneurship [00:49:45] as better than I just I view it kind of as a necessary evolution for those of us with this certain personality type. I can really see why that would have, you know, completely been a disaster for him. And I got to learn so much. I mean, my dad is one of the sweetest men that I've, that I've ever met in my entire [00:50:00] life. And so I hold a lot of a lot of respect for you know, people who aren't wired for risk the way that we are.
[00:50:10] Anastasia Koroleva: But do you think that the fact that you were poorer than your [00:50:15] friends when you were a child created a chip on your shoulder, which later pushed you to become ambitious about earning money?
[00:50:25] Mike Brown: Absolutely. I mean, no question. Right. Like, I think I think all of these things [00:50:30] contribute to the drive. I think, you know, being on the lower middle class end of things in a very wealthy town definitely was a driver, but even more so, I think it was watching my parents fight about money. I mean, I can remember saying to myself [00:50:45] as a very young child, like, I'm going to have so much money when I grow up that I'm never going to have to fight with my spouse. And I think that was really the core driver. And yes, I think the societal layer on top of that with my childhood friends was was [00:51:00] a part of that, but I think it was even more acute for me based on the dynamic I saw in my family.
[00:51:07] Anastasia Koroleva: So it was nature and nurture then in your case?
[00:51:10] Mike Brown: Yeah. And my mom.
[00:51:13] Anastasia Koroleva: Become an entrepreneur.
[00:51:14] Mike Brown: Yeah. [00:51:15] And my mom was was an incredible mother who pushed us really, really hard, you know, with five kids in the family. Yeah. You know, my kind of core story was that achievement equals love. Like, if I wanted to get attention [00:51:30] at the dinner table, I better have gotten an A on a test or won my swim meet or scored a touchdown or whatever it is. And because that was just how we competed for attention in the family. And so she raised five very competitive children. And again, that's a that's [00:51:45] a really great core wound to have is that achievement equals love because it kind of sets the stage for success as a driver. But if not uncovered and healed at some point, it becomes a limitation. And that's kind of the path that I went on.
[00:52:00] Anastasia Koroleva: Brilliant. [00:52:00] So, Mike, Mike, going back to your coaching business right now if a recently exited entrepreneur came to you and asked, what should I avoid? [00:52:15] What are the traps, what are the dangers, what I should not do within the first 2 or 3 years post exit at least. What would you say?
[00:52:25] Mike Brown: Yeah. First. First and foremost is, from a financial standpoint, build [00:52:30] a protective reserve whether that's, you know, whether you want to hire a wealth manager or self-manage, you know, make sure that so the concept I teach is called escape velocity, which is essentially that point where your assets pay for your spending [00:52:45] without ever drawing down on the principal. So first and foremost, do that, you know, before you make any investments, before you're investing in your buddy's startup, before you're buying crypto or whatever, you know, whatever wild entrepreneurial proclivities. You have like take care of their protective [00:53:00] reserve first. And then the second thing I would say is give yourself the gift of stillness. But like we said earlier, do the work. Like go to therapy. Hire a coach. Like, figure out what it is that makes you tick. And [00:53:15] and I think the mistake that we make, you know, a lot of people come to me and they go, well, yeah, but what if I lose my edge? And my answer is like, if your edge is driven by darkness, you may lose your edge. But there is so much for you in building and honing a new edge from a place [00:53:30] of wholeness. And so, you know, don't jump into something so fast. Like, don't get into the trap of biggering and biggering. Like, take some time. Take some. Take some space to heal. See what comes up for you in the absence of busyness. Like [00:53:45] force yourself to read fiction books. Force yourself to go on walks with no point, right? Like. Because the other thing is, is if we're not building a business, we might jump into a new sport or a new hobby, and then throw ourselves into it just as voraciously as we do to business building. [00:54:00] And I actually, you know, tell people like, hey, take some idle time, like try and do a hobby with, with no intention of getting good and just and see what comes up in that space. And that's when the real work begins.
[00:54:14] Anastasia Koroleva: Are you doing [00:54:15] this to break the pattern the habit of achieving? Is that is that the reason?
[00:54:21] Mike Brown: Yeah. And what I would say is that the point is actually not to break our patterns, but it's to become a [00:54:30] choice. So, you know, achieving is a really useful pattern, but not if it's our default subconscious state. Right. So I want to say, hey, when when can I put on this achievement based hat. When is it useful? But also [00:54:45] when is it not. So it's really identifying how can I step out of this as a default mode into an at choice mode? And I think that really is the thing because I still want to keep my drive. I still want to keep my discipline. Like I want to keep all of those things that that [00:55:00] that made me successful. I just don't want to be doing it unconsciously.
[00:55:06] Anastasia Koroleva: But how do you master this, control this, this switch of achievement mode?
[00:55:14] Mike Brown: Yeah. I [00:55:15] mean, it's I think I think it's kind of the the fundamental process of self-actualization is understanding that control is an illusion and that no matter how hard we try, we actually have [00:55:30] way less control than we think. And, you know, every time I find a new layer and step into where am I trying to control or, you know, it's kind of it's kind of a corollary to where am I not free? Where am I not free is usually a place I'm trying to control. And [00:55:45] so what does it look like to have you know, understand that, like, hey, I know where I want to go or I know what I think I can become, but let me hold that very loosely and allow the pattern to emerge rather than trying to force outcomes. And [00:56:00] every time that I find myself out of alignment, it's probably because I'm trying to force or control an outcome versus setting the conditions and then allowing that that outcome to naturally emerge as it will. And when we step into that, so [00:56:15] often the outcome is so much greater and so much more beautiful than we could have possibly imagined. Because, you know, ultimately they are. Our imagination is such a limiter, right? Because when I think about the greatest things in my life, all of them are beyond my wildest dreams. And [00:56:30] so how can I foster the environment for my wildest dreams that I couldn't even imagine to come true?
[00:56:36] Anastasia Koroleva: Do you think it's still useful to set up long term goals like a ten year old big, hairy, audacious goal? [00:56:45]
[00:56:46] Mike Brown: I totally do. So I'll, I'll I'll name mine for you, which is, you know, I see a future where I am a multi-time bestselling author. I'm speaking on the biggest stages in the world, and I'm impacting you [00:57:00] know, people at a at a really massive level. But I have no idea exactly what that path is going to look like. I have some ideas, like I'm working really hard on writing my first book right now. It's going to come out in the fall. You know, I'm working on creating content, so it's okay. What [00:57:15] daily conditions, what daily, weekly, monthly conditions need to be true in order to allow for that outcome or make that outcome inevitable. And if I can just engage in those now, the path is going to take whatever path it takes. But I know that I will eventually get there. [00:57:30] It's just a lot less structured than maybe it would have been ten years ago for me.
[00:57:35] Anastasia Koroleva: So when we sell our companies, one of the biggest challenges is that we no longer have a structure. We no longer have those people we delegate to [00:57:45] who do what we ask them to do. How would you advise people to go about it and create an alternative structure in their lives without a company.
[00:57:59] Mike Brown: Yeah. I think [00:58:00] a couple of things. One is I recommend, you know, as long as the exit is significant enough, I recommend keeping two employees. One is a is an assistant and two is a house manager. So I [00:58:15] think, you know, my house manager, Sarah, is my most valuable employee. And you know, essentially when we hired her, I said, hey, look, we're too busy, fun loving CEOs that want to spend more time with our kids. So I want to outsource [00:58:30] all of the daily tasks that take time away from my kids and being present. And that is such a force multiplier, because now I'm not doing things like, you know, cooking, doing laundry, going to the store, like all of the things that [00:58:45] kind of take up a lot of space in our life. And so, you know, if a post-exit founder has the means. I highly recommend keeping some you know, keeping a personal assistant or a VA or a house manager. And, you [00:59:00] know, with that I think that rules are made to be broken, right? Like, I think we need to go break all the rules. I think we need to go into an unstructured period to then say, okay, what structure is serving me and what structure doesn't.
[00:59:13] Mike Brown: Right? Like, I don't want to place a bunch of obligations. [00:59:15] Like, I don't want to join a bunch of boards where I have to show up for meetings. Like, I want some unstructured time to then decide, okay, which structures actually serve me. So for me, it's it's health. And fitness is a is a structure that I that is really important. Right. If [00:59:30] I, if I start getting away from my, my workouts or you know, some of my other health practices like that's going to put me in a bad spot. So I'm going to keep that structure. But, you know, feeling obligated to you [00:59:45] know, attend whatever meetings or events or like, that stuff actually doesn't serve me. I don't want to be beholden. I don't want my time to be beholden to things that I'm not really passionate about. So I want to get rid of that structure. So it's really, you know, going into a period of, of [01:00:00] unstructured activity and then and then finding where to build in a way that serves who you want to become.
[01:00:07] Anastasia Koroleva: That leads us to a question which for many Post-exit founders is particularly painful early [01:00:15] on, which is identity. How do you think? What is the most helpful and healthy way to answer the question, what do you do after an exit?
[01:00:27] Mike Brown: Yeah, I mean, I think the probably the most [01:00:30] fundamental question that a post exit founder has to answer is who? Who am I without my company? And a level below that is who? Who am I without my achievements? Who am I without my success? And that can get really, really uncomfortable. But [01:00:45] that's where the beauty lies. It is, is when you strip away all of the achievements, all of the money, all of the, you know, whatever. Who are you at a core? Like. Like who do my kids know me to be? Who does my partner [01:01:00] know me to be? And then. Then you can start uncovering who am I to me, right? And I know that's that's sort of an esoteric question, but I think there's so much in there is, you know, ultimately, like, am I still [01:01:15] lovable if I'm not building things or achieving things? And that's something that a lot of founders wrestle with.
[01:01:23] Anastasia Koroleva: Yeah, absolutely. So what are your biggest lessons with respect to relationships after your divorce [01:01:30] and your whole transformation into a coach?
[01:01:34] Mike Brown: Yeah, I I, I found myself so incredibly fortunate in that I met a new partner you know, not [01:01:45] long after my divorce who was a fellow founder, and she had been building a digital marketing agency for many years. And this was someone who was is a true equal in every sense of the word. And we've been able to develop a relationship [01:02:00] where one plus one is greater than two. And for me, that distinction actually came when I was at my lowest point during that that failed e-commerce company. There was days I didn't even want to get out of bed in the morning, and a good [01:02:15] partner, I think would have come in and said, hey buddy, like, you got this, you can do it. Like get up. You know, we can we can go do this. And she actually said, hey, stay in bed. I'll take your meetings, I'll run your company, and whoa, like, what a what a crazy [01:02:30] relief. And, you know, experience that I had never had. Because I think when we are incredibly capable, we tend to again back to control. Like we control all of the outcomes. And if I'm not okay, nobody else is going to be okay. And to [01:02:45] go into a place where, hey, I actually cannot be okay, and someone's got my back, and someone capable can actually hold this space for me to be a mess. What an incredible gift. So I just I just am, you know, I [01:03:00] have such deep gratitude for being able to build this relationship.
[01:03:04] Mike Brown: And I think it's a gift. You know, I I think that, you know, we grow and evolve and there's a really great [01:03:15] podcast with, with Esther Perel on on Huberman that talks about, you know, we have multiple relationships in our lifetime. And if we're lucky, those relationships can be with the same person. You know, I was not so lucky. And now I get to build [01:03:30] this second mountain relationship. And I think, you know, I get to use all of the the learned learnings and tools that I have access to now that I didn't before. And the reality is, is that, you know, Relationships take [01:03:45] intentionality. And, you know, there's there's your relationship with yourself and there is your partner's relationship with themselves. And then there's this third entity, the relationship between the two of you. And you know, people say relationship takes [01:04:00] work. I don't love the word work, but I would say tending to. Right. Like, we have to be intentional with how we build this thing or it's going to get out of hand. Because the reality is, is that, you know, as we go through life, little micro resentments build up that, that create [01:04:15] a chasm. And so if we're not working to constantly heal those and come back together and pour intention into that relationship, I think any relationship is going to deteriorate over time without that.
[01:04:26] Anastasia Koroleva: Absolutely. And [01:04:30] I wonder if you guys work so well together. Are you thinking of actually working together, doing something as work partners as well, sharing your purpose or you prefer to separate these things?
[01:04:45] Mike Brown: We've [01:04:45] tried many, many variations. So you know, she was my CMO for both my previous company, and now she's my CMO for my new company. I'm the CFO for her company. So, you [01:05:00] know, we both have a deep role in each other's companies. But there was actually a period of time where you know, in between companies. I was like, oh, I'm going to work for you. I'll be your number two. And it turns out I really am unemployable. And even even though [01:05:15] it was my wife, there was no way that that was going to work. And so now we've found a really mutually beneficial way to work with each other, where we help each other grow and build. But we're not so intricately involved in each other's companies that we're getting in each other's way. [01:05:30]
[01:05:31] Anastasia Koroleva: You found your balance. That sounds great. Mike, is there something that we haven't discussed that you feel you would love to share with an audience of exited founders.
[01:05:45] Mike Brown: I [01:05:45] mean, you were so good at asking great questions. This is hands down one of the deepest interviews I've done, and I'm so grateful for the opportunity. But I would say the biggest thing is something I have already [01:06:00] shared, but I would just love to reiterate and really leave the audience with, which is give yourself that gift of of stillness. And in that stillness, lean into figuring out who you truly are without achievement. Because I think [01:06:15] that is really the key to then being able to build something from purpose, something that's bigger than yourself. And I can tell you, you know, the view from here is remarkable. Like waking up every day, like, [01:06:30] do I want to post on social media every single day? Like, of course not. But if I can take myself out of my ego and say, you know what? This is not for me. Like, there is somebody out there that needs to hear this wisdom and this journey. And I've earned that. I've earned the right because [01:06:45] of the the, you know, the pain and suffering that I went through. And if I can step out of myself into service like it's such a gift. And so really just take that stillness and and see what's there for you.
[01:06:58] Anastasia Koroleva: It is it is definitely [01:07:00] worth it. I agree with you. I've gone through a similar journey, and I would love people to not miss this opportunity and find what they truly, truly are about and why they are on this planet in the first place. So [01:07:15] Mike, my last question. It's the same question I ask everybody else how do you want to be remembered?
[01:07:22] Mike Brown: You know, I I think there's a big difference in impact and [01:07:30] legacy. And legacy is what happens after you die. For me, legacy is heavy. You know, I really am. You know, I hope I'm remembered by [01:07:45] my children as a as a great dad. But other than them, I really don't care. Who am I remembered by? I care about who I can impact while I'm here. And and so I just try to focus on everything on present rather [01:08:00] than you know, putting my name on the side of a building when I'm gone. And that's what keeps me driven. That's what keeps me getting up every day is how can I impact people in the present, rather than worrying about some future where I'm not even around to [01:08:15] enjoy it?
[01:08:18] Anastasia Koroleva: Awesome. Mike, thank you so much. So much wisdom. Absolutely brilliant. You've given us so much value. I'm really, really grateful for that.
[01:08:28] Mike Brown: Yeah, well, I really appreciate [01:08:30] the opportunity to to to jam with you. Like I said, you ask amazing questions, and I. And I really appreciate the work that you're putting into the world.
[01:08:38] Anastasia Koroleva: Thank you so much.
