Craig Follett. Art Is My Post-Exit Purpose & Business
Episode - 27
Craig Follett. Art Is My Post-Exit Purpose & Business
Craig Follett. He built universe.com, a social marketplace for events, and sold it to Ticketmaster in 2015.
Following the sale, Craig grew the business 30-fold and took the company global before leaving in 2019.
He then found his calling in building peggy.com, a secure marketplace for buying and selling investment-grade art.
In this episode, Craig shares how and why he found his post-exit mission in making incredible art affordable to everyone.
What We Discussed:
00:00:00: Introduction to artist observation
00:00:06: Introduction of Craig Follett
00:00:20: Craig's transition to Peggy.com
00:00:38: Craig's thoughts on art
00:01:19: Special event in London
00:01:53: Conversation in Miami
00:02:02: Creative journey and motivations
00:02:46: Craig's sabbatical and meditation experience
00:06:12: Creativity and boredom
00:06:51: New challenges: surfing and climbing
00:07:30: Brainstorming new ventures
00:08:14: Founding Peggy.com
00:09:16: Art market opportunity
00:11:15: Solution through AI and marketplace
00:12:45: Artist resale rights
00:13:02: First business and social impact
00:14:00: Evolution of the first business
00:15:40: Creativity as motivation
00:16:54: Purpose-driven business
00:18:08: Societal impact of art
00:20:12: Personal fulfillment and giving back
00:21:09: Creators versus investors
00:21:32: Builders and artists' motivations
00:22:10: The role of money and resources
00:23:00: Relationships and social impact after selling a business
00:23:07: Personal role models and identity
00:23:56: Handling post-exit emotions and identity reconstruction
00:25:00: Separating identity from business ventures
00:27:06: Redefining self after selling a business
00:27:54: Morality of pursuing self-interest through business
00:29:14: Planning personal growth and Vipassana meditation
00:30:15: Relationship with spirituality
00:31:07: Experience with staying at an acquirer post-acquisition
00:33:01: Balancing autonomy, mastery, and purpose post-acquisition
00:35:12: Reflecting on selling a business
00:36:34: Future plans for Peggy
00:36:57: Insights into the art industry
00:37:31: Art as an investment
00:39:27: Personal connection to art
00:41:08: Balancing business and joy
00:42:13: The role of suffering in personal and professional growth
00:43:51: Parallel between art and business
00:44:10: Upcoming auction in London
00:44:27: Potential to replace traditional auction houses
00:45:07: Creating a new canon of artworks
00:46:39: Role of blockchain in their technology
00:47:38: Future aspirations
00:48:05: Views on legacy and family
00:48:38: Reflections on mental health and upbringing
00:49:53: Closing remarks
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Craig Follett: [00:00:00 - 00:00:05]
Artists historically have been always some of the best observers of the world around them.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:05 - 00:00:38]
Craig Follett. He built universe.com, a social marketplace for events, and sold it to Ticketmaster in 2015. Following the sale, Craig grew the business 30 fold and took the company global before leaving in 2019. He then found his calling in building Peggy.com, a secure marketplace for buying and selling investment grade art. In this episode, Craig shares how and why he found his post exit mission in making incredible art affordable to everyone.
Craig Follett: [00:00:38 - 00:01:04]
One of the things that make art interesting is it's an appreciating asset that you get to enjoy as it's appreciating. Art doesn't need to be beautiful, necessarily. It could be ugly. Artists have shaped society in paths. You look at key tearing through the AIDS crisis in the 1980s, drawing attention to the telling stories and messages and creating change. So that's very powerful.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:09 - 00:01:14]
Hi. Nice to see you here. All the way from Capita?
Craig Follett: [00:01:14 - 00:01:14]
That's right.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:15 - 00:01:17]
Fantastic. What are you doing in London?
Craig Follett: [00:01:17 - 00:01:32]
I'm here for a really special event. We're doing an auction of 700 artworks in conjunction with seven musicians. 100 artworks per musician and 700 artists. So super cool. One of the musicians is Paul McCartney.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:32 - 00:01:53]
Awesome. Yeah, that's a good start. I mentioned to you that I really wanted you on my show because we had that fantastic conversation in Miami a few months ago when you told me that you see building business at art, and I would really like us to dig deeper into this.
Craig Follett: [00:01:53 - 00:02:24]
Yeah, I love that. Totally. I think my co founder and I are both creators and creatives, and our canvas, in a way, is software. And in this case, it's a bit meta because our software is also for artists. But this being our second venture together, we actually built our first one together and then sold it to Live Nation. We knew we wanted to build another together, and part of the motivation for that was really and just the act of creating, building something. Couldn't imagine doing anything else other than building another new atom.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:25 - 00:02:27]
So it makes you an artist.
Craig Follett: [00:02:27 - 00:02:30]
I guess so, yeah. We view ourselves as artists. Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:30 - 00:02:43]
So when you sold your company, which was quite a few years ago in 2015. That's right, you sold the best s, and then for four years you stayed with, like, nation, just ticket master.
Craig Follett: [00:02:43 - 00:02:44]
That's correct.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:45 - 00:02:58]
If you take. If you go back to that moment when you were free from your business and from Ticketmaster, that moment you realized you could do whatever you want, your business is sold, your obligation, etcetera. How did it feel?
Craig Follett: [00:02:58 - 00:03:49]
It felt like liberating and exciting, but also sort of strange, right? Because that was such a wonderful journey, but very, very intense and kind of fully involved in us. And one of the reasons it felt strange is I took the sabbatical between the two ventures, and my first thought is, okay, I'm going to try to do nothing. And it tried my best to do nothing, and that was challenging. So after a short amount of time, I got a bit tired of doing nothing and felt that I needed to do some other things and still maintain it as a sabbatical, but inject some purpose and growth and kind of take advantage of that sabbatical phase. But I did want to experiment with doing nothing as well.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:03:49 - 00:03:53]
How did you take advantage of that phase at the end of the day?
Craig Follett: [00:03:53 - 00:04:31]
Yeah, I mean, how did you get activated? A bit of travel, of course. That's kind of a classic thing that people do in the travel. One of the things that I did was the vipassana. So that's a ten day silent meditation. I did that in Thailand, and that truly was doing nothing because that's sitting 10 hours a day meditating for ten days in a row. It was doing nothing, but it was also sort of doing something and injected a challenge and a purpose. And, yeah, being a sabbatical, there's sort of a special phase where no obligations, taking time away from anything could truly sort of sit there for ten days.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:04:31 - 00:04:35]
What did you get out of that ten day long meditation?
Craig Follett: [00:04:35 - 00:04:36]
I think a lot.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:04:37 - 00:04:37]
Pardon me.
Craig Follett: [00:04:37 - 00:05:20]
It's kind of maybe even hard to describe, but maybe reflecting a lot of things was like a sense of appreciation. And to make that a story, I guess, like, emerging from that, I felt very aware, like I would see colors more vibrantly, just kind of notice things with kind of like a closer eye. Maybe the way that a child does a little bit is a child sort of, you know, just has that sort of focus or attention or curiosity, and we get a bit distracted in life along the way, or we're obligations and responsibilities and so, yeah, that was really special kind of a sense of appreciation.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:05:21 - 00:05:24]
And do you think it had a long term effect?
Craig Follett: [00:05:25 - 00:05:27]
Probably, yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:05:27 - 00:05:32]
Did it give you authority as to what you wanted to do next or whom you want to become next?
Craig Follett: [00:05:33 - 00:06:10]
It wasn't. There wasn't like an epiphany that came out of it. Like, if I need to do this or I want to be this more just kind of like a strengthening of the mind, you have a moment to let the mind reset and prepare for next big thing. And definitely I wanted to. I guess I also nourished from it with a, I'm a very motivated person already, but feeling kind of extra motivated, like, okay, I really want to dive into something. And the experience, you felt the hungrier. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. After sitting for ten days, you want to hungry sort of thing. Yeah, exactly.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:06:10 - 00:06:29]
Fascinating. Because, you know, there is this idea that boredom, silence is very good for creativity, because that's where creativity actually comes from. They are invited in your life. So I was curious if that's where the room took you into those new business came from.
Craig Follett: [00:06:29 - 00:06:51]
We could say that, yeah, I would say that. That's a really special thing that creativity comes out of coredom in today's day and age, where there's so many digital distractions and things, we rarely, as a society, get time to sort of have nothing and be bored and have that spark the desire for creativity, so. Totally.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:06:51 - 00:06:53]
So what did you do next?
Craig Follett: [00:06:54 - 00:07:04]
Yeah. Then another challenge I wanted to take on is to open up a month of surfing straight. So I did that, which was great. That's a challenge. Surfing is challenging and fun.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:07:04 - 00:07:05]
Who did you surf before?
Craig Follett: [00:07:06 - 00:07:17]
I had surfed before a couple times, but I was like, I want to dive into something new. So for me, this was something new and a new challenge, and I love sports and staying active. Yeah, that's kind of another thing that I did.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:07:18 - 00:07:20]
You're a professional climber onto you?
Craig Follett: [00:07:20 - 00:07:28]
Oh, yeah. I've done my bit of climbing in the day, and I call myself professional, but, yeah, I love climbing and bouldering. Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:07:28 - 00:07:43]
So you did a bit of that. And then I'm just trying to see how you change during that time between your businesses and how the idea of going to any business into you. How long did it take?
Craig Follett: [00:07:43 - 00:08:13]
Yeah, my co founder, Adam and I, we've been brainstorming businesses pretty much ever since the day that we sold the first one. We're saying, okay, what would we do next? And we started creating ideas, hundreds of ideas, many whimsical, some more concrete. And of course, we ended up coming to Peggy, which is the new business. But, yeah, we kind of started brainstorming right away, just observing things, pain points, ideas, and jotting them down.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:13 - 00:08:27]
And in Peggy, I assume your tech background and interest AI might all came together activity. I can see how it ticks all the boxes. So things you like.
Craig Follett: [00:08:27 - 00:08:27]
Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:27 - 00:08:28]
You climb it?
Craig Follett: [00:08:29 - 00:08:30]
Yeah, totally.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:30 - 00:08:31]
You forgot that one.
Craig Follett: [00:08:31 - 00:08:37]
That's right. Maybe we'll find some artworks of climbers or something like that. Or mountains.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:37 - 00:08:41]
So tell me about it, how you decided to do that.
Craig Follett: [00:08:41 - 00:09:14]
Yeah, I mean, one of the first things that I also did, I guess, in this article is I went to art Basel in Switzerland, the original art Basel in Basel, Switzerland. And, yeah, that was a delight. And that's where I met her, now vice president Bart Braun and Hunter shortly. It's amazing. And it's also where I learned a lot about the kind of blue chip art world and how it works and how that's very vibrant for, you know, the ultra, ultra high net worth. Who can go there and purchase art from these major galleries, and there's a whole ecosystem there, and, yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:09:14 - 00:09:29]
So how did you see an opportunity there? Because to me, it's a very obscure industry that I personally don't fully understand. And you came from a technical background. How did you see the opportunity there?
Craig Follett: [00:09:29 - 00:11:12]
Yeah, the opportunity wasn't solely from that trip. That was kind of an immersion that gave more context and kind of concrete understanding of the existing structures and incumbents in the space. But the idea also came from when Adam and I, we sold the first business. We each bought some nice houses, and these houses had big, blank white walls that were just crying for art. And it was time to buy grown up art. And so started looking into that. But I found it to be kind of an intimidating decision to make, because once you buy that arter, you're meant to take care of it and shepherd it. But if you're operating in an art bracket that's not art Basel. You don't have that liquidity, you don't have the ability to rehome it. What if you're moving to a new place and you've got to different collector vision in that duplex, a different collector voice? The rest of the world who aren't ultra high net worth don't have that flexibility. And therefore, that lack of flexibility makes that investment in art a little less of an investment if there's no liquidity. And so that actually really constrains the emerging and mid career sector of the arts, because if collectors have a hard time collecting art in that bracket because of this lack of flexibility, then that hurts the artist, too, because it's harder to be an artist because there's less of a market for your art. So, yeah, that was kind of a very tangible observation.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:11:13 - 00:11:15]
So how do you specifically solve that problem?
Craig Follett: [00:11:15 - 00:12:15]
So we solved that problem by creating an app in a marketplace, in this app. And one of the net new things that we've done is we've brought in an AI. So we've built an AI in house, which lets an artist create an authentication of the artwork using their smartphone. The cameras on their smartphone and our AI in the cloud, which crunches the optical inputs and they register that unique one of one artwork as that specific artwork. So then from there, collectors in the future can verify here at work and trace the ownership history through all the collectors over the years, decades and maybe centuries ahead, all the way back to the artist studio. And if the transaction ever happens in the future, we actually pay a resale royalty or an artist resale right. To the artist, which actually there's an artist resale rate in the UK, but that doesn't exist in the rest of the world. It's only UK and Europe.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:12:15 - 00:12:21]
Yeah, because you did tell me that artists can get royalties, secondary sales.
Craig Follett: [00:12:21 - 00:12:22]
Exactly right.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:12:22 - 00:12:28]
Which I found very interesting because musicians can do that in a way. Right. But the artists normally don't.
Craig Follett: [00:12:29 - 00:12:54]
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, if an artist becomes, quote, successful over their painting just sold for millions of dollars in the secondary market, then the artist doesn't get any of that monetary upside until pegging. So yeah, we wanted our second venture to really quite squarely have a social impact, and that's one of them.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:12:54 - 00:13:02]
Why is that? Did you have that already in your first business or you kind of grew into it later?
Craig Follett: [00:13:02 - 00:15:43]
I think we did have it in our first business, but maybe not as it wasn't as zero one, it wasn't as kind of net new. What we did have in our first business is so it actually began as a sharing economy marketplace. So this was back in 2011 when most people hadn't heard about Airbnb, but there was this thing called the sharing economy, which was this movement. And there were all of these little startups for sharing of bicycles or spaces, Airdb, for instance. So we created a company called universe with two eyes, universal, two eyes.com. and the two eyes were two little people, two stick figures with heads, meeting in real life. Because part of the social impact that we were trying to create there is connecting people in real life. The world was becoming and is today as well, so virtual, so digital. You may not know the neighbors in your apartment building or in your community. And we wanted to connect people in real life over an authentic sharing of experiences, of items, spaces, skills. And so we built that. And we had tens of thousands of dog walkers and tens of thousands of items in Mopas. But where we're starting to see traction in that was actually the activities. So cooking classes or yoga in the park, peer to peer activities. So we focused on that because that's where we're seeing the most contraction. And those activities grew to larger and larger activities and then ultimately they became events. And so we ticketed the birthday party of a local chef, celebrity chef, who was on tv, and he brought 100 or 200 people that were on his friends, and they were also all chefs or foodies. And that from there, we ended up kind of exploding within food events. And we did a night market. Food night market. And we needed a ticket scanning app for that. At this point, we still had item sharing in there, dog walkers and so forth. But then we kind of realized, oh, wow, we've kind of accidentally created a ticketing company with a very strong technology underpinning. So we focused on that and then sunset Italy items and the dog walking listings, and from there, just drew a. Grew and grew and became what? Islam universe with one eye.com. because it's no longer. Yes. We managed to get universe.com. yeah. And Peggy.com, which was also challenging to get.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:15:43 - 00:15:52]
Fantastic. So most people I talk to honestly admit that when they started the first business, it was out of greed. How was it for you?
Craig Follett: [00:15:52 - 00:16:48]
Yeah, I think it was also out of creativity. So at the time, I was working at Boston Consulting Group, and I'd been there for maybe three years and was kind of on this partner track. I actually really enjoyed it and was doing very well. But I started choosing projects that were in the tech space, due diligences of startups or landscapes of new startup and technology sectors, and was interviewing all sorts of entrepreneurs and realizing, I want to be on the other side. I want to be doing that. And part of that, I think, is I wanted to be building, so I felt the desire to be building something again. And, yeah. So it kind of came out of that desire for creativity and, yeah, of course we wanted to make money while doing it, but, you know, we could have made money in our day jobs at BCG, and we're happy as well. Yeah, actually.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:16:48 - 00:16:55]
So it was really creativity that pushed me forward. And now the new business again, that's your motivation. Plus impact.
Craig Follett: [00:16:56 - 00:16:59]
Yes, plus also. Yeah, certain. Plus impact. Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:16:59 - 00:17:08]
And that's impactful. Primarily artists, but also to give access to everyone, to this arthem.
Craig Follett: [00:17:08 - 00:18:08]
Yeah, to artists, but also to society at large. Because, you know, there are unusual times in the world today, and artists historically have been always some of the best observers of the world around them. And many artworks have messages imbued in them. An artists often create change and catalyze change to these observations. And it's sort of tragic that to be a successful artist, you need to be part of this blue chip art world, but it's challenging for people to become an artist unless you're kind of inducted into that. And so by creating this more vibrant landscape and market for collectors to participate in a more affordable level, that means that artists can also do that. And, yeah, we want to, you know, help society evolve in a way that is observant and aware.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:18:08 - 00:18:10]
And does this give you a sense of purpose?
Craig Follett: [00:18:11 - 00:18:12]
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:18:12 - 00:18:20]
Because you mentioned before, because, like, you lost back when the business was gone, so you found it in paidia.com, and that's what drives you now.
Craig Follett: [00:18:20 - 00:18:21]
Yes. Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:18:21 - 00:18:22]
Satisfied that under.
Craig Follett: [00:18:22 - 00:19:02]
Yeah. A friend of mine was telling me about he was going through a career change himself, and he was thinking about this framework that we together have called Amp a M P, which stands for autonomy, mastery, and purpose. So he realized that those are three things that really motivate amp. So that resonates with me, too, is certainly being an entrepreneur is autonomy, but if you're doing it for something that you believe in and you think has an impact, that provides purpose as well. And if you're doing something challenging and with AI and so forth, maybe that's the mastery piece, too.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:19:02 - 00:19:28]
Yeah. And that's the definition of extrinsic motivation as opposed to extrinsic. Right. Which we often deal first when we start the business. But I guess in the case, maybe it was a bit different for most people. It's quite extrinsic and interesting. Right. How this fact that you built and sold a successful business affected the way you think about money and wealth.
Craig Follett: [00:19:29 - 00:20:35]
The first business. Yeah, I mean, I think I feel very lucky and grateful. I think actually one thing I would remember or reflect on is during the time at BCG, you go out, maybe you treat yourself for a debtor. And of course, the food tastes pretty good. I remember after starting the first business and earning the money that we did make the hard way, where we were being creative and working hard in a different way. Certainly it's hard work at piece of jute. The food sort of tastes better if you feel like maybe you've earned it a bit more. So that's a bit different. And then there's obviously when you reach a certain level of success, you can give back and so forth as well. So also during the sabbatical, I took my mom to Patagonia as a gift for a milestone birthday of hers. Took my dad on a trip as well. And that was super special, to be able to create those memories, have both the time to be able to do that, but also the means to do that, too.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:20:35 - 00:21:10]
You know, I interviewed somebody a few days ago who wrote Boris Derenberg, and he wrote a beautiful post which was called Alan Gregson and my business. And one thing he was taught about that is that he noticed that many people after they started business turn into dragons. And I know, I love that. And that they turn into dragons and they, with all their energy on accumulating more wealth. And he didn't like that. He didn't relate to that. It sounds like it didn't happen to you. No, they didn't have that problem.
Craig Follett: [00:21:11 - 00:21:12]
Yeah. Not a dragon.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:21:15 - 00:22:01]
I'm happy to see you that, because I do believe that some people, when they accumulate money, they realize, in a way, whether they are more creators or whether they're more investors and creators, and you clearly are one of those, then. Some of them call themselves builders, call themselves artists, but essentially it's a creation that drives them. They end up building another business, but oftentimes they spend years first trying to become investors because they think they need you, that they expected to. And it's quite interesting that it sounds like you didn't do that. I guess we just follow your motivation for creativity.
Craig Follett: [00:22:01 - 00:22:09]
Yeah. And the investment that Adam and I are making is largely in ourselves. So to bet on ourselves in the next venture. Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:10 - 00:22:18]
So you would. You would say money is more leverage for your purpose? Not necessarily if it would by itself.
Craig Follett: [00:22:18 - 00:22:36]
Yeah. It's a resource and it lets you. It gives you time if you use it in a certain way, or time is also ultimate resource and it's the scarcest resource. Right. But, yeah, it gives you opportunity and the ability to do. To do other things.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:36 - 00:22:51]
And how it affected your relationships with other people, the fact that you built and sold your business, and others would, you know, see you as someone who succeeded that way. What happens in the social sphere of your life?
Craig Follett: [00:22:52 - 00:23:00]
Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. I didn't really think about that. In terms of relationships with other people.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:23:00 - 00:23:02]
You handle as well.
Craig Follett: [00:23:02 - 00:23:03]
Yeah. That's good.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:23:03 - 00:23:06]
So who do you want to be when you grow up?
Craig Follett: [00:23:07 - 00:23:31]
I guess I always admired both of my grandfathers in different ways, and one of them was an engineer, the other was. Was an entrepreneur. And I always really admired that, you know, this entrepreneur, that he was a really cool guy and had that autonomy and a presence. So maybe I want to be him a little bit.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:23:32 - 00:23:33]
He's your role model?
Craig Follett: [00:23:33 - 00:23:34]
A little bit, yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:23:34 - 00:23:35]
Is he still the one?
Craig Follett: [00:23:35 - 00:23:36]
No, unfortunately, not yet.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:23:36 - 00:24:00]
So many people have this existential crisis of sorts after they start their business. Some say, oh, I sold my baby or I lost my others deal with imposter syndrome or guilt. And you seem to be surprisingly healthy, Mendeley. How did you achieve that? Was it that ten day silent meditation?
Craig Follett: [00:24:00 - 00:25:14]
Maybe it was the Vipassana, right? No, I think that's an interesting question. One thing I would reflect on is, in the first venture, I kind of conflated or associated my identity with that of the business. And so it was very. I'm sort of challenging to sell that and then to let go of it, because, you know, I felt that my identity was very tied to the business, and so letting go of that was like, sort of shattered what my identity was. How do I define myself? So I had to almost recreate that from a new foundation with lots of. With the resources from the acquisition and everything. So it's a good problem to have, for sure. But, yeah, that is a unique observation, for sure. It's like the association of identity with. It's a business as a corporation, it's not your identity. So in the second venture, really, I guess just being aware of that is part of the solution. And knowing that the second venture, it's nothing, who I am, it's its own thing. It's.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:25:15 - 00:25:19]
Do you manage to detach yourself? Does it work? Because I understand you want to achieve that.
Craig Follett: [00:25:19 - 00:26:25]
Theoretically, yeah, I want to achieve that. Do I manage to do that? I'd say yes and no. So the yes being yes, I realize now that, okay, this is a separate entity. It is not me, it is Peggy, and it can live on its own. In fact, that, to me, is the definition of the success of it is that it's this sort of self healing organism, that it's healthy on its own and that I am not it. And I learned that from actually spoke with another entrepreneur who sold his business and spoke with him, a bit of a mentorship capacity as well, about his philosophies on that. But then, in ways that I don't manage to, I'm definitely very involved in it. It's an all consuming labor of love, and I'm fully invested in it from a time perspective and energy perspective. But that's different than the identity kind of concept.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:26:25 - 00:26:40]
It sounds like it's the vehicle which you channel your creativity and you achieve your purpose through it, but you manage to separate it into a different mean.
Craig Follett: [00:26:40 - 00:26:57]
Totally, right? Exactly. Whereas in the first venture, my definition of my being was inclusive of the universe. And so I think it's healthier if you're able to kind of keep those a little bit separate. I.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:26:57 - 00:27:14]
So when you lost your identity of, you know, mister universe, he loves that idea. You look at yourself in the mirror and you ask yourself, so who am I without universe.com question mark, what was your answer?
Craig Follett: [00:27:14 - 00:27:53]
I guess, you know, I look at the circles around me, so I look at my family, my immediate family and extended family. That's a reflection of who you are, I guess, as well. So that's one thing. And then I guess in trying to do nothing, whether it was literally just, you know, trying to do nothing at home or doing the pasta, maybe realizing that creative drive and other artists at heart kind of mentality. So when you strip away business outlets, maybe that's where it came down to.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:27:54 - 00:28:04]
So let's talk about self interest and how you feel about that. So do you think it's morally acceptable to pursue self interest through business?
Craig Follett: [00:28:07 - 00:28:46]
That's an interesting question. I think if you are pursuing something that is in self interest, meaning you're making money for yourself or building something of what you own, is it morally acceptable? I think it can be if you are also aware of its impacts around what you're creating and all of the impacts, the whole supply chain, so to speak, and ideally also the impact that it has in a positive way. So, yeah, I think you can't separate that out of the self interest.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:28:47 - 00:28:55]
So self interest is fine as well. That's your way. And take responsibility for consequences of your pursuit of self interest.
Craig Follett: [00:28:55 - 00:29:14]
Correct. So maybe one care with awareness and empathy across awareness of all the different surface areas that something impacts, draws upon or changes, and then empathy for all those different surface areas, all the other people and things and environment, et cetera, evolved.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:14 - 00:29:30]
So you clearly are a person very aware of your personal growth. How do you plan it going forward? How do you think about it? Which areas of your life you would be or your personality you would like to improve and then what direction?
Craig Follett: [00:29:32 - 00:30:00]
Yeah, that's an interesting question. My mind goes back to the Vipassana as well, and where, emerging from it, I asked myself the question, would I do this again? And it was sort of, I don't know if I would do that again. That's the feeling that I had in that moment. But as time progresses, I actually realized maybe I would do that again and try to find a chunk of time and see what's the impacts of it a second time.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:00 - 00:30:03]
A friend of mine does it every year for ten years.
Craig Follett: [00:30:03 - 00:30:04]
Wow.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:04 - 00:30:05]
It's totally different.
Craig Follett: [00:30:05 - 00:30:06]
That's commitment.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:06 - 00:30:06]
I know.
Craig Follett: [00:30:06 - 00:30:07]
Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:07 - 00:30:08]
I think it's so impressive.
Craig Follett: [00:30:08 - 00:30:09]
Have you done one?
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:09 - 00:30:18]
No. This way. I'm asking, I'm very curious what impact it had on Diana. So what's your relationship with spirituality?
Craig Follett: [00:30:18 - 00:31:13]
Yeah, we were, as a family, raised, not religious. We had traditions that we, you know, throw a Christmas tree up and things like that. But we were raised basically atheist. My dad grew up with religion, and then I always thought this was interesting. And then he was able to, because he was raised with a religion, then make the sort of decision, or if need to make that leap into a non religious paradigm himself, whereas then we were raised with that decision already made for us or raised in that sort of paradigm post that shift that he had. So that's how we were raised. But yeah, we kind of with traditions around Christmas and Christmas trees and things like that, but not in a religious.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:31:13 - 00:31:21]
Way, which is different from spirituality. Right. But when it's in the part of the universe, mister universe does that.
Craig Follett: [00:31:22 - 00:31:23]
Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:31:23 - 00:31:32]
So that's what led me to my question, because I thought, okay, maybe that's part of your intentional personal growth in that direction.
Craig Follett: [00:31:32 - 00:31:46]
Yeah, for sure. I think there's a spirituality lens, if that's the right word, when kind of reflecting and pursuing pursuits like the Vipassana and so forth.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:31:46 - 00:32:11]
So going back to you selling zeniverse.com but then staying for four years with the acquirer, what did indigenous, how do you feel about that experience? Because obviously there are lots of people who regret ever agreeing to stay upset. Section becoming a liar. How did it work for you?
Craig Follett: [00:32:11 - 00:32:56]
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think one of the reasons that we said, well, first of all, there was an earn out for the first bit, so could walk away from that earn out or, you know, achieve the earn out. So, you know, we were achieving the earn out. So that was one reason to stay for part of that. That was kind of a two year period, but then why stay for four? Right. And the answer to that was, I think maybe linked to the identity thing like they were talking about earlier, where because I had associated my identity with universe, I still really wanted to see that totally succeed. And it was hard for me to leave that because it was part of my identity that I kind of self imposedly defined for myself.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:32:58 - 00:33:01]
So you are leaning on to, yeah.
Craig Follett: [00:33:01 - 00:34:07]
That's kind of one piece, and then another piece is for most of it, credit to live Nation Ticketmaster. They allowed us to operate in a very kind of entrepreneurial win, and that's also due to the success they were having post acquisition in the growth of universe. And so it still felt autonomous. It was very fun to be expanding it internationally onto new continents. And there was still so on the autonomy mastery and purpose, autonomy there, from that perspective, kind of, to our pleasant surprise. And then there was also a new mastery, because we were growing at two new levels of scale and into new geographies. And so that provided learning as well, until that sort of plateaued and there was a little less autonomy, and we'd learn what we learned and process the billions of dollars of tickets that we had. Then it was time to reclaim that independence and let go of the identity and then create the next one.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:34:07 - 00:34:31]
Because I noticed for people who stay at the Echoira, even though they often regret agreeing to do that, it actually helps them to transition in a much smoother way. Like me, for example, had an exit without any air out and without any obligations whatsoever. It felt like it was a great idea, but actually, it's a much more abrupt change in life.
Craig Follett: [00:34:31 - 00:34:55]
Interesting. Yeah, I can see that. That said, I also kind of imagine, and I think back on that period, it's like, oh, well, what if we did just leave more immediately? Because time is the. Out of all the resources, it's the most finite and scarce resource. So it's like, oh, well, could have left that earlier and had that time.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:34:55 - 00:34:59]
So to spot building something that you eat. Our day.
Craig Follett: [00:34:59 - 00:35:12]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or do whatever. Right. No, I don't regret. Yeah, no, regret it. No regrets. That was a great journey, and we learned a lot and had a lot of fun along the way, too. So, yeah, no regrets.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:12 - 00:35:14]
Do you ever regret selling the business?
Craig Follett: [00:35:14 - 00:35:34]
Sometimes I'd wonder what directions would we have taken it had we? Nothing. But not really, because it's enabled this new face and our big one with Peggy, which is an even more exciting Candace and medium to be playing with.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:34 - 00:35:36]
Do you think you'll sell Peggy in the kitchen?
Craig Follett: [00:35:39 - 00:35:47]
I'm not sure. Maybe if the offer was right, fiduciary responsibility to our investors and everything, or.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:47 - 00:35:52]
Just interested in the intention. Because is it for you a lifestyle thing?
Craig Follett: [00:35:52 - 00:36:38]
It's not a lifestyle thing. I think it is a business. At the end of the day, it's its own entity. It's its own thing that's living and breathing and growing. And I think the way that I might answer that is whatever produces the most impact for artists and society and collectors and the art world and the society around it that can be shaped and changed and that the impact is associated with that impact could be created through partnerships and things and evolutions. But I would kind of tie it back to impact. Really? Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:36:38 - 00:36:43]
Last time I saw you was actually an art person. Miami.
Craig Follett: [00:36:43 - 00:36:44]
Sorry. Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:36:44 - 00:36:57]
And I wonder what you've learned about the co art industry since you joined it. Like, what are the biggest sort of discoveries for you? Surprised you a lot.
Craig Follett: [00:36:57 - 00:37:30]
I mean, it's such an interesting and intricate ecosystem with many different stakeholders. So a lot of different things, I think, know how it's very vibrant at this kind of upper crust billionaire, ultra high net worth echelon. And there's kind of a lot of liquidity and fun dynamics there that don't really translate down. So it's one thing I've learned, lots of observations. I don't know where to begin.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:37:31 - 00:37:32]
Do you think art is a good investment?
Craig Follett: [00:37:33 - 00:38:15]
I think art is, you know, it's an alternative investment. So it's different than investing in a stock and what have you, and ultimately it's tied to an artist. So it's an investment that has purpose or meaning beyond just the financial value. But there's this whole thing called the art market, right? And so that does ascribe value, financial value in addition to aesthetic or a purpose value to mice, artworks. So, you know, you can invest in that from a financial perspective, and it could potentially increase embedding work or not.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:38:15 - 00:38:34]
No, we do recommend it because actually we had a discussion two days ago with a group of Exeter founders who were looking into all these alternative investments. And we all end up with ringing that we have no idea. If I said with investment, and I thought maybe give the shed some lights on it.
Craig Follett: [00:38:34 - 00:39:32]
I think it's one of the things that make art interesting is it's an asset that's an appreciating asset that you get to enjoy as it's appreciating. Kind of similar to real estate in a way, where you can invest. Pikey.com, that's right outside. But yeah, real estate is a. It's an asset that you can invest in and generally it may appreciate, and then you can also appreciate it, live with it, live in it as it's increasing and can value. And there's very few assets in the world that are appreciating assets that you get to enjoy. And so art is one of those. And it's also interesting if you want to invest in it, because it has social impacts as well as, you know, giving back to artists and arts. And there's a whole community effect there as well. So it's different than just a purely financial investment for you personally.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:32 - 00:39:34]
How important is it that it's beautiful.
Craig Follett: [00:39:35 - 00:39:38]
For me personally, as a collector?
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:38 - 00:39:50]
As a person who chooses to do business in this industry is wild, right? Is that important because you come from the tech side, right?
Craig Follett: [00:39:51 - 00:40:02]
Yeah. That's a good question. I think art doesn't need to be beautiful necessarily. It could be ugly. It could emotion.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:40:02 - 00:40:02]
Right.
Craig Follett: [00:40:02 - 00:40:23]
It create conversation and make you feel something. And so it doesn't necessarily need to be beautiful. It could be beautiful, and many artworks, of course, are, but it also could be Eddie jarring or off putting her, you know, unusual, and either in its aesthetics or its messages. And that's very powerful, too.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:40:24 - 00:40:39]
So what do you think it gives people besides just making them feel a particular emotion at that particular moment? What was the impact of art on humanity? That's negative. Big question.
Craig Follett: [00:40:40 - 00:41:08]
Yeah. I mean, artists have shaped society in Patsy, look at Keith haring through the AIDS crisis in the 1980s, drawing attention to that and telling stories and messages and creating change. So that's very powerful. Again, the centuries past, artists have been rebels and changed the way we look at things. So that's kind of an answer to that in the big way. To your question.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:41:08 - 00:41:23]
So how much of your life is occupied by your business right now? Are there other joyful activities that you're doing, or. It's really everything for you. It's joy then meaning and purpose.
Craig Follett: [00:41:23 - 00:41:33]
Yeah, I mean, I'm very focused on pay right now, so I'd say that, you know, for kindly, most of my time and energy and attention is on Peggy.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:41:33 - 00:41:34]
Does it feel like work?
Craig Follett: [00:41:35 - 00:42:02]
I mean, I think it feels like work, for sure. It's definitely hard work. It has that mastery element and challenge, and we put a lot of energy into it. So it feels like work, but it feels like work. That's very fulfilling, and it's enjoyable. So for me, I enjoy the. Maybe it's a masochistic thing, but I enjoy really working hard and building, but.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:42:02 - 00:42:12]
We can't really grow without suffering. Suffering is part of it. We shouldn't want anything without suffering, because whenever we want something, it's by definition, suffering.
Craig Follett: [00:42:12 - 00:42:12]
Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:42:13 - 00:42:19]
This whole idea of avoiding suffering doesn't quite work in reality, I think.
Craig Follett: [00:42:19 - 00:42:45]
Right, yeah, no, I totally relate to that. And the first venture, that spectrum, I kind of metaphor like, oh, food. Food tastes better when you've. Maybe you've suffered. You've worked hard in this, you've earned money the hard way with some suffering along the way, and then the successes that you see from that, you know, kind of with the contrast in life juxtaposed against the suffering element, is even that more special.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:42:46 - 00:43:31]
So, yeah, I see a lot also. It's. People work very hard in the business, they sell it, and then they feel they suffered so much, they feel sorry for themselves. And they're very tired, and they try to always suffer for a long time. For me, it's one of those mental blocks link and not to the cult, that actually hinders people's progress towards finding their purpose. Sometimes going to one time because they have this idea that want to suffer. That's. That's why I raise it, because I can breathe in suffering as a source of pleasure that, you know, who can't have pleasure, satisfaction without suffering. It's still important as part of mindset to move on.
Craig Follett: [00:43:31 - 00:43:31]
Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:43:31 - 00:43:32]
Would you agree?
Craig Follett: [00:43:32 - 00:43:34]
Yeah, well said. Yeah, totally.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:43:34 - 00:43:46]
And if you think about art, it often comes from suffering. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's not necessarily evil. Sometimes it actually shows extreme suffering. That's why we react to it so emotionally.
Craig Follett: [00:43:46 - 00:43:47]
Absolutely.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:43:47 - 00:43:49]
Empathy for that suffering.
Craig Follett: [00:43:49 - 00:43:54]
Totally. Yeah. There's definitely a parallel there with art, for sure.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:43:54 - 00:44:05]
So what's next for PE? I find this business so exciting. I really hope it will grow very big and impact a lot of lives. So what are your plans now?
Craig Follett: [00:44:05 - 00:44:27]
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we're really, really excited. I guess what's next immediately is this auction that we're doing here in London with Paul McCartney and Aurora and chemical brothers and seven artists. And so more of those, like, more auctions. That's something where we've been finding a lot of resonance.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:44:27 - 00:44:31]
Do you think you replaced traditional artwork, shop houses, over time?
Craig Follett: [00:44:31 - 00:45:00]
Yep, maybe so. I think right now, we're not overlapping. Right. We're operating in a bracket that's much more accessible in prices, in an area that they normally operate. But as we grow and evolve, there may be a day when we're moving up market as well, and then operating in that bracket, too. So when they're listening, if you're listening, we're coming.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:45:01 - 00:45:07]
I always thought that it's one of the places that needs to be disrupted.
Craig Follett: [00:45:07 - 00:46:39]
Yeah. And I think as I step back and think about the question strategically or kind of long term as well, what we're doing is all the artists are registering their artworks on penny, and that's really creating a whole new canon of artworks. Each artist has what's called a cataloger as a name. At catalog resonance, typically, classically, it was a book, and it had a reference of all of the artworks that that artist is creating in their career. And then if you have a whole bunch of catalog rumors and ace together, it creates a ken. And the canon has been historically defined by auction houses, and the blue chip is really kind of a small sliver of the overall society of humanity. Not every in a way every person is an artist. Everyone can create as a child, where every open, free child creates. And so the option has only have a kind of a narrowly defined canon of certain quantity of artists. Meanwhile, Montagu artists are registering artworks and building up this much larger canon of artworks. And as time progresses, and those are works and artists kind of increase in notoriety, value, and the province of ALS, that's really the ultimate registry that. Why would you go to a narrowly defined auction house when there's this much larger reference point?
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:46:39 - 00:46:41]
What, is blockchain part of your technology?
Craig Follett: [00:46:41 - 00:46:48]
Not at this time. We call it blockchain adjacent. My co founder and CTO, Adams, built things in the blockchain.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:46:48 - 00:46:53]
Okay. That seems to me the logical technology for you.
Craig Follett: [00:46:53 - 00:47:38]
Yeah. So, you know, the registry part of Peggy is right now, it's a centralized database, whereas blockchain is a decentralized database. And so because we've built an AI where the artists register the artworks and collectors or anyone can validate the artworks, that AI is a centralized oracle. And so you can have a centralized oracle, which could be linked to a decentralized database or to a centralized database. So for simplicity, and because it's a centralized oracle, you might as well have a centralized database at this point. But it's built in a blockchain adjacent way where at any point we could pop it over to a decentralized modality. A good question.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:47:38 - 00:47:45]
And what do you think about your future? You think it will always be building businesses where you may become an artist?
Craig Follett: [00:47:45 - 00:47:57]
Yeah. Maybe you can start creating art on Penny, right? Yeah, it was creating. I certainly really enjoy creating businesses and software, but could create other things too.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:47:57 - 00:48:00]
But as long as you're creating, you're happy.
Craig Follett: [00:48:00 - 00:48:05]
I think so, yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's a huge motivation for me. Doesn't have to be a business.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:48:05 - 00:48:12]
I know you're very young and it's far away from you, but how do you think about legacy if you didn't, was your relationship with it?
Craig Follett: [00:48:12 - 00:48:25]
Yeah, legacy, I think. No family. So I'd love to grow family at some point. That's maybe another kind of creative outlet, if you can use that metaphor.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:48:26 - 00:48:28]
You'll come much less time for business.
Craig Follett: [00:48:29 - 00:48:35]
Sure. Yeah. So we focused on that now, but, yeah, that's a piece of legacy that I would want in my life.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:48:36 - 00:48:36]
Family.
Craig Follett: [00:48:36 - 00:48:37]
Yeah, for sure.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:48:37 - 00:48:46]
Great. This has been amazing. You're probably the healthiest, mentally healthiest exited founder ever met.
Craig Follett: [00:48:47 - 00:48:49]
Wow, that's unflattered.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:48:49 - 00:49:08]
It is beautiful. That's wonderful. And that is really my biggest question. I really want to understand why you didn't have the crisis other people had. Do you think it's your childhood? Is it the way your parents raised you?
Craig Follett: [00:49:08 - 00:49:20]
That's where I had one. Honestly, it was, you know, credit to my parents and my childhood. Great childhood. My mom was an educator, so, too, my sister.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:20 - 00:49:21]
That's what it is.
Craig Follett: [00:49:21 - 00:49:43]
Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, my mom knew what she was doing, definitely. Yeah. My dad, too. My dad is a lawyer, but, yeah, I remember as a kid he always kind of spoke to us like we were adults and asked lots of socratic questions and. Yeah, had a really special way of raising us as well.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:43 - 00:49:47]
Have you ever had any mental health concerns?
Craig Follett: [00:49:47 - 00:49:50]
No. Yeah. Anything.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:50 - 00:49:57]
Anything. It's so beautiful. Very inspiring. I'll be definitely watching penguin.com grow into big and impactful business.
Craig Follett: [00:49:57 - 00:49:58]
Thank you.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:59 - 00:50:00]
Thank you so much for coming.
Craig Follett: [00:50:00 - 00:50:01]
Thanks for having me.
