Alex Macdonald. A $300M Exit is No Reason to Retire

Written By Anastasia Koroleva

Episode - 48

Alex Macdonald. A $300M Exit is No Reason to Retire

 
 
 

What would you do if you sold your company for 300 million dollars? Retire? Explore the world? Do all these other things you had no time to do while building a business?

This is not what my friend Alex Macdonald did when he sold his company Velocity Black two years ago. In fact, Alex made it quite impossible for himself to have any kind of post-exit sabbatical. Why?

Well, Alex has seen enough of his post-exit founder friends getting stuck in full-blown existential crisis after they sold their company. He didn't want that to happen to him. I think honestly, if I had had that void, it probably would have not led to a productive use of my energy. I'm actually very happy that I had something immediately to jump into. And yeah, that's led to me not having to go through that challenging period that I see a lot of my friends go through, questioning their identity and everything.

In this episode, we're going to explore why he made this decision, whether two years later he still feels it was the right one, and how he applies the lessons from his first full entrepreneurial cycle to building his new business, appropriately called SQL.

What We Discussed:

00:00:00 - Introduction

00:02:25 - The Story of Velocity Black

00:07:46 - Selling Velocity Black to Capital One

00:07:05 - Why Alex Started Another Business Before Selling His First One

00:10:52 - The Founder’s Existential Crisis After an Exit

00:12:45 - The Shortage of Builders, Not Investors

00:14:19 - Work-Life Balance & Health After an Exit

00:16:21 - Lessons from Running a 24/7 Business

00:19:52 - Changing Approach to Work with Sequel

00:21:19 - Different Approaches to Post-Exit Businesses

00:24:19 - Sequel: Building a Next-Gen Goldman Sachs

00:27:26 - Managing Motivation After Financial Success

00:31:03 - Fulfillment vs. Happiness: What Really Matters?

 

00:33:15 - The Biohacking & Longevity Obsession

00:35:51 - Community & Meaning in Life After an Exit

00:39:13 - The Idea of Creating a New Religion

00:45:46 - The Role of Structure & Responsibility in Life.

00:54:08 - The Challenge of Freedom After an Exit

00:57:46 - Angel Investing & How It Led to Sequel

01:03:42 - Helping Athletes Transition Beyond Their Careers

01:07:37 - Building a Legacy vs. Just Making Money

01:10:52 - Avoiding Mistakes in Early-Stage Investing

01:15:30 - The Power of Influence in Investing

01:20:05 - Sequel’s Future Plans & Scaling the Model

01:25:00 - What Drives Long-Term Success?

01:30:10 - Final Thoughts & Advice for Founders

  • Anastasia: [00:00:00 - 00:00:02]

    Hi, Alex, thank you for coming. 


    Alex: [00:00:02 - 00:00:03]

    Thank you for having me. 


    Anastasia: [00:00:03 - 00:00:12]

    Finally, you know, you and I met, if you remember, on the day when the news about your exit leaked. 


    Alex: [00:00:14 - 00:00:15]

    I do remember, yeah. 


    Anastasia: [00:00:15 - 00:00:27]

    And we had lunch with 14 other post exit founders and our mutual friend Timo Armo put you on the spot and said, oh, he sold the company today. You should pay for lunch for everyone. 


    Alex: [00:00:28 - 00:00:45]

    That's how I met you. He did. That was the day that the news leaked. Exactly. It was yet, it was, it was yet to complete. Right. So we were a bit, I mean, we were a bit upset that it leaked, but obviously once Timo did that and put me on the spot, I had to actually pay for lunch. You can't. 


    Anastasia: [00:00:45 - 00:00:47]

    I know. That was your first post exit investment. 


    Alex: [00:00:48 - 00:01:01]

    There we go. Yeah, but yeah, no, it was an interesting look. It's, you know, mixed features, feelings about everyone knowing. But. But yeah, it was a very intense period, obviously trying to get the actual transaction closed. 


    Anastasia: [00:01:01 - 00:01:25]

    So I remember you, you looked a bit confused because you probably yourself didn't quite, you know, fully realize that you no longer, you know, own the company. And a new chapter started. I want us to focus on what happened since in this interview. But before we go there, tell me about Velocity Black, the company you actually sold on that day. 


    Alex: [00:01:25 - 00:04:05]

    Yeah, so. So we started Velocity Black, which was originally called Velocity, at least the company was called velocity in 2014. It was my very first business. So I was a first time founder. I previously worked in turnaround, so managing distressed companies, but decided I want to build something myself. Had seen, you know, companies like Airbnb and Uber Rising at the time and thought it was an interesting opportunity to build something in the mobile space. And I phoned the smartest person I knew from school, back from when I was at school, and convinced him to quit his job at Goldman Sachs and come and join me. And we started Velocity in 2014 and our first product was actually around mobile payments. So we did. We were one of the first companies where you could see the bill on your phone in a restaurant and get up and leave. Pay on your phone and get up and leave whenever you want without waiting for the bill. Right. Which is something which will split the bill with your friends, which is something which a lot of people can identify with. Right. No one likes waiting for the bill in restaurants. It was quite a popular idea. Investors could easily understand it, customers could easily understand it. And we raised quite a lot of venture capital for that initial idea quite quickly. Raised, you know, close to $20 million within a year and a Half and grew it quite rapidly from the UK into the US and Canada. But it was a terrible business, terrible unit economics. And so we had this sort of moment after 18, 24 months, where me and Zia, we just closed our Series B. We were sat in a glass. I still remember the exact room, this glass room in our office in soho, thinking, having the most money we'd ever had in the history of the company's existence sitting in the bank account, but also being the most stressed we'd ever been because we were like, this business doesn't work, we're gonna have to change. And so we did quite a hard pivot to Velocity Black, which was. Which still is a digital concierge. So if you think about the traditional concierge services, like Quintessentially or Amex Centurion, you know, where they have people sitting in call centers sort of answering calls and you have a personal lifestyle manager, our plan was to digitize that, put that into an app, and then enhance it with artificial intelligence. Make it much more, firstly, much more efficient to run as a business, but secondly, a much better customer experience. And this is before AI was cool. 


    Anastasia: [00:04:05 - 00:04:07]

    Unfortunately, I was just about to say. 


    Alex: [00:04:09 - 00:06:46]

    So we would have been able to raise a lot more money. But this is way before AI was cool. But we were using sort of natural language processing basically, rather than large language models to do a lot of automation in that space. And the Pivot was successful. Right? We already had good relationships with the restaurants from our first business. And so it was a question of adding travel experiences, luxury goods, and then, you know, obviously kind of perfecting the actual digital product to make it work properly. But, yeah, very quickly grew to sort of millions of dollars in revenue. And so we knew at that point that we actually had a business which was good and it had great unit economics, right? So we had really good sort of LTV ratios and we had really happy customers. And, yeah, we then went on to grow that business. We did raise a bit more capital after the Pivot, but the new business was very capital efficient, had a great working capital cycle, Right. People paying annual memberships up front and then transacting through the platform as well. So we didn't actually need to raise a lot more. A lot more, at least equity capital to raise a bit more debt and continued growing that for, yeah, five or six years. We launched. So we had the private client side, Velocity Black, where we had our own brand, direct to consumer, and then we had an enterprise side where we would white label the technology and the product for basically Any premium or luxury brand that was looking to build stronger relationships with their clients. So people like Rolls Royce. So Rolls Royce have an app called Whispers. If you buy a Rolls Royce car, you can access the app called Whispers, which had a concierge as part of it, which was Velocity Black, basically. And we did that with banks, credit card companies, and so it's kind of like a, you know, an enterprise arm of the business. And, yeah, we grew. We grew successfully, both the. The private client side and the enterprise side. And then eventually one of the enterprise clients who we were forming a partnership with, Capital One, you know, started saying they were interested in investing in us, but we didn't need any money, so we said no. And then it gradually led to ultimately that making an offer to acquire us and a bit of back and forth negotiating, and eventually we came to an agreement and sold the company to Capital One. And they're still managing the product. The product is still live under the Velocity Black brand. And I know they've got some exciting plans to live launch some new Capital One products using the technology that we had. So look forward to seeing those come out. 


    Anastasia: [00:06:46 - 00:07:05]

    So it definitely sounds like a very exciting business. So why did you start another one before you sold it? Because that's one of the things we talked about it. That's one of the things that makes you very unusual for my podcast, because you actually had another business already at the time that you sold the first one. 


    Alex: [00:07:05 - 00:10:52]

    Yeah, so. So let me say this. Yeah, so there was some overlap, right. And I had. So I ran Velocity Black. I was co. Founder and COO for eight years, and roughly two months before we got the acquisition offer, I told the board I wanted to step back to be chairman to start a new company, which is Sequel. And I didn't know we were going to have an offer. And the reason I thought that was the right time to step back to start this new company is because the company was doing better than it ever had been. We'd got through Covid successfully. The business was growing revenue strongly whilst generating strong positive cash flow. It wasn't profitable, but positive cash flow. Strong, positive cash flow. The team were happy. We had a great management team in place, and I felt like it was the first time I could actually do that. And then just by luck, we had an offer come through. Right. Which we accepted. Now, you know, did I even pause to think at that point in time, oh, should I. Should I continue and go and launch this new business, or should I take a break and, you know, take some time off? No, I Didn't. And I don't, you know, I often, I often thought to myself, should I have done that? Should I have taken like six months off? Ultimately, I don't think I should have. You know, and, and I've, I've got, you know, some of the people who've been on your previous podcast, I know very well, as well as some of my friends who've exited businesses. You know, I typically find they go into this kind of, which is a lot of what this podcast is about. They go through this kind of existential crisis right after they have an exit. Right. And I think honestly if I had had that void and the time to even think about all that stuff, it probably would have not led to a like productive uses of my energy, let me put it that way. And I probably would have got bad habits. I probably would have got used to, you know, an unhealthy kind of lifestyle which ultimately wouldn't have led me, you know, I'm not sure I, I'd say I'd search, I search for happiness, but I search for fulfillment. And I not sure I would have felt very fulfilled if I had, if I had taken that break. So I'm very, I'm actually very happy that I had something immediately to jump into which gave, you know, where I could invest all my time and energy and hopefully now some financial resources rather than having to go and raise lots of money from lots of other people. And, and yeah, that's led to me, you know, not having to go through that, that kind of challenging period that I see a lot of my friends go through where they're like questioning their identity and everything. And for most of them, you know, and put it this way, you know, that Velocity Black journey was very tough. You know, we've kind of skated over it, but there were some really, really tough parts. It's a very operationally intense business. Right. We had the most demanding clients in the world. It's 24 7, 365. It's unsociable times. It's, you know, there's a big human team, young, all around the world. And so it's an always on business. Literally always on as in, you know, occasionally having to wake, well, waking up, I'd say two or three times a week in the middle of the night to deal with a crisis. Right. For eight years. So I think a lot of my friends, they kind of go through that particular first time founders and they exit, they go through that very intense period and then they're like, I need to, I need A break, which is understandable, but really what they need to do is build something again. Right. Particularly if they're a founder. 


    Anastasia: [00:10:52 - 00:10:52]

    Yeah. 


    Alex: [00:10:52 - 00:11:20]

    And, and that's what, you know, I think is quite, I'm, you know, we don't, the world doesn't need lots more investors, to be honest. Right. And you know, as much as anyone says there's, you know, challenges around fundraising in my view, and I think all the data shows there is no shortage of capital, really. There's a real shortage of talented people to go out and build stuff. Right. 


    Anastasia: [00:11:20 - 00:11:22]

    Willing to work very hard to create value. For sure. 


    Alex: [00:11:22 - 00:12:45]

    Exactly. And I think if you are, if you are a founder and you've had some success with your first journey, you know, that is what you got fulfillment through is probably building something. Right. You're, you're likely to get that fulfillment if you do it again. And the second time around you can do it in a different way. Right. Firstly, you've learned a lot of lessons, right. And you've made a lot of mistakes that you hopefully won't repeat again. You probably have some resource now to do it in a slightly different way, which may be less stressful. Right. And maybe you don't want to go down this sort of venture capital building a $10 billion business next. Right. But I feel like most people, a lot of founders, because their personality types, they kind of think, oh, I've built this now I'm going to go and spend some time thinking about all these other things I can do, right. And they go, you know, do I start buying cash flowing businesses do. I do. They do. Pretty much everyone does the same. They go through the same journey of exploring all these different things. Right. And, and, and by the way, from the outside, all those other things look easier, right? But as you know, the closer you get to them, the harder you understand, you know, the more expertise you need. Right. So, so ultimately, I think the ones that end up most fulfilled come to the end of that sort of 6 or 12 month or some cases multi year period of kind of exploring stuff and they go back to, actually I'm just going to found another company and start building something. 


    Anastasia: [00:12:45 - 00:12:55]

    Alex, we talked about my interview with Corey Jensen. Exactly that story. He tried everything and then at the end of the day, what makes him happy, building a business again. 


    Alex: [00:12:55 - 00:12:56]

    There we go. 


    Anastasia: [00:12:56 - 00:13:18]

    Like it happens all the time. And also, you're absolutely right about the danger of being stuck in this limbo for, for a very long time because some people relax too much and then they create whole systems around the beautiful lifestyle and Then it's very hard to get to pull yourself out of that. Even if you feel this need for purpose in your life, it's still very hard. 


    Alex: [00:13:19 - 00:13:36]

    Absolutely, yeah. And I think, look, some of them have, some of them have genuine ptsd, right, from their first companies, right. I think I do. I think a lot of founders do and they feel like they have to escape it, right? And I can understand that, but maybe just having a holiday for a few months is a better way of doing that and then starting again. 


    Anastasia: [00:13:37 - 00:14:19]

    That's, that's, that's exactly the conclusion I came to. Because, because there is, there is this optimal time to start a new business. It's probably idea. Ideally it's good to have a break because most people are very tired. You're saying you are not that tired, surprisingly, but lots of people are really exhausted, so it's good to have a bit of a break. But then it's so dangerous to get stuck either. Either in decision paralysis or trying all these different things one after another just because others do. Yeah, you're absolutely right. But for me it's also very interesting because you didn't have any break at all and you worked extremely hard for eight years. So how about just physically recovering? Did you do that? 


    Alex: [00:14:19 - 00:16:21]

    Yeah, I. Look, I, I think firstly. So with Velocity, you know, Velocity Black, we were still operating when co hit, right? And I was still full time in the business when Covid hit and that was a very challenging time for the business, right? So we had, you know, travel was our main source of revenue right out of the different categories. So, you know, engagement sort of plunged, I'd say, very aggressively in the first sort of couple of months of COVID Thankfully, it recovered very quickly and we pivoted some of our services to deal with that and eventually, you know, we ended the year flat, which I think is better than most other startups in that space. But the one positive thing I'd say about COVID after I got through that initial, very stressful few weeks where we had to like restructure the team, like do all these changes to the business business, we went fully remote and that was when I realized how unhealthy I was, right. So, so I did. It enabled me to invest some more time even whilst running the business full time and actually, you know, going to the gym, eating properly, doing those kind of things. And so by the time we got to the sale, I was still doing a lot of that stuff and we were still fully remote. And so that, I think that helped. But firstly it helped during the Sale process, which was also very stressful. And yeah, look, I think I was in a, you know, it wasn't like I came to after I'd sold the company. I was like, oh, now I can focus on my health. I'd already been doing it for a couple of years and it was really thanks to Covid that I've been able to do that. Right. Because yeah, I think if I hadn't, I'd have still been going into the office for 80 hours a week. Right. Which is what I was doing before. So, so, so yeah, I think that definitely helped. And look, I continue to invest in more in my health since we exited. But yeah, thankfully I had the wake up call and the opportunity with what Covid and sort of remote working forced me to think more about health at some point. 


    Anastasia: [00:16:21 - 00:16:37]

    A few months ago we talked about this and you mentioned that you actually approach your work life balance differently with SQL, your new company, comparing to Velocity. So tell me about, about that. 


    Alex: [00:16:37 - 00:18:17]

    Yeah, look, I think certainly. And by the way, there's no like right answer to this stuff, right? The right answer for someone at a certain point in time in terms of their life stage, you know, their age, whatever, is not going to be the right answer for someone else. Right. But in terms of what was, you know, where I was at with Velocity Black, like let's talk about the period pre Covid. Right. I mean, all I knew was from a diet perspective was like Deliveroo and then eating out, doing lots of like client entertaining and eating out in restaurants all the time. And don't get me wrong, they were nice restaurants, but it was not a healthy diet from an exercise point of view. It was like minimal exercise. Right, right. And you know, it's one of the real lessons that I've, you know, come to learn is I'm a completely different person if I exercise once a day. Like I make much better decisions and, and aside from just being healthier, like mentally, that is what, like exercise is my therapy. Right. And so same here. And so if I, if I do that, I'm in a, you know, I'm in a much better mood. I'll make better decisions, company will run better. And so, yeah, look, I went through a few years of Velocity Black where it was just very intense sometimes where I didn't leave the office, right. For a couple of days. So I'd be. And like when we were hiring lots of people and it was, you know, we had engagement skyrocketing and we literally didn't have enough team members to deal with the demand that we had those very intense times and I became very unhealthy. You know, if I was to rewind, would I do it differently? Probably not for that. For that point in time. 


    Anastasia: [00:18:17 - 00:18:18]

    Right. 


    Alex: [00:18:18 - 00:19:52]

    Because I genuinely think the company would have failed if I didn't do it right now. I have changed what I do now. Right. And, you know, I prioritize doing some exercise every day ahead of everything else. Right. And I. That's like blocked out my diary. It doesn't change. Right. And nothing will come up, literally, unless I have to take my wife to the hospital to stop that. Right. So. So yeah, I think that's the one main change is I prioritized exercise, certainly first of all, and then diet and sleep afterwards ahead of everything else. And then hopefully that will enable me to make better decisions. Right. But at that point in time, you know, would I. Would I go back and change my habits? I'm not sure. You know, I. I just feel like if I had taken a different approach at that point in time, because, you know, me and Z didn't have lots of financial resources, you know, the company was kind of surviving. Right. And we, you know, so you. You're kind of investing everything into the business and you're worried that if you don't, that it might fail. Right. In a couple of months. So. So I'm not sure I would change that. As I said, I think there's a right answer for you at whatever stage you're at in your life and whatever stage your company's at. Right. Like, there may be times at CEQ where I'm going to have to, you know, be in the office for 20 hours. I don't know. It hasn't come up yet, but there may be some time where I have to do that, and maybe that's a short period of time where I'm doing that. But certainly for now, I'm absolutely prioritizing things like exercising stuff ahead of it because hopefully that will lead me to making better decisions. 


    Anastasia: [00:19:52 - 00:20:00]

    But do you think this happening, this is happening at the expense of the company or it's actually good for the company? 


    Alex: [00:20:01 - 00:20:02]

    I think it's good for the company. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [00:20:02 - 00:20:05]

    That you are more stable and you're taking care of yourself. Yourself better. 


    Alex: [00:20:06 - 00:21:18]

    Yeah, for sure. And, and look, you know that there's, I think with, with velocity means here we're still having to do a lot of. We're having to do everything right. Like, and really, as a CEO, you know, quality of decision making is. Is the most important thing. And at sequel, I'm still Doing some of the things. Right. I do a lot of our content and I speak to a lot of our clients. Right. I still do sales calls, so to speak. We don't call them sales calls, but I do, I speak to a lot of our clients. I organize some of our events and things myself. But, but most of the things I do and the highest leverage things I do are obviously making decisions. Right. And those, the quality of those decisions are much more impactful than you know, me doing a particular piece of content or me hosting a particular event or me doing a particular sales call. So if I'm healthy and if I'm in a, you know, in the right space, mentally those quality of decisions should be much higher. Right. And therefore the business should do much better. So generally, yes, the bit, you know, I'd say the business should be much better off if you're prioritizing your health first. 


    Anastasia: [00:21:19 - 00:21:49]

    Yeah. So I noticed that lots of people who sell their businesses then look at the next business very differently. Some look at the new business as sort of a lifestyle thing to stay busy and not necessarily as driven or working very hard. And other people try to be very rational about it and they plan for an exit to happen as soon as possible. Which group you belong to or are you in the third group altogether? 


    Alex: [00:21:51 - 00:24:11]

    Yeah, I'd say neither of those groups. I'd say what I'm trying to do, what we're trying to do with SQL. So you know, in the long run we're building a next generation Goldman Sachs. Right. So we're focused on high influence, high net worth individuals, people who can bring more than capital to the underlying assets. And we're creating, you know, a tech first platform to engage with those clients and enable them to invest and eventually we will do some wealth management through the platform as well for them. But for now it's just we're connecting them with individual investment opportunities and our first asset classes venture. So in the long run this is an ambitious project. Right. It's not a lifestyle business and I believe it can be a $10 billion plus business one day. I am doing it differently to how we did Velocity Black. You know, I have not raised, I've raised from some friends and family but that's mainly to keep, keep me accountable and on track. Most of the caps in the business has come from myself and that will continue to be the case until it becomes so big that that's no longer possible. But, but yeah, most of the business, the capital for business come from myself and I've, you know, I see this I see us as having certainly a $10 billion opportunity here. You know, a typical venture timeline for building that might be 10 years. And I don't have a, an aggressively short timeline like that. Like, for me, I see this as being like a 15 to 20 year journey. We're dealing with clients who, you know, they're very influential, very wealthy and therefore it's a very high trust business. Right. And I think taking a venture approach to trying to scale that too quickly will lead to failure and will lead to mistakes. And it's very hard to build trust this kind of client and it's very easy to lose it. And so our approach is, you know, not to go and raise hundreds of millions and pump loads of money and grow this as quickly as possible with a big risk that it fails. It's to take it a bit more slowly, build trust and build products based off our client needs and build trust over time and hopefully do it in a more capital efficient way. Right. And in a lower risk way. Right. Where there's a much lower risk that the company fails because we're, you know, we're not, you know, foie gras. The company with capital, you're much more. 


    Anastasia: [00:24:11 - 00:24:19]

    Careful and you actually listen, you focus on your customer rather than the VC investor who is pushing you to do something. 


    Alex: [00:24:19 - 00:25:01]

    And I wouldn't say like, I'd also say I'm not working towards an exit with this. Right. Like I have, like, obviously I want to provide liquidity for my team and for the friends and family that did invest in the business. Right, right. At some point in time, there are lots of ways to do that. So I'm not working towards a particular exit. I think to get to the business that I envision right now in terms of the opportunity, I think is like a 15 year journey. Right. @ least and we'll see what happens after that. But there's no like plan to kind of build and sell. And I know we have some friends, some mutual friends who literally just think of things that way. Right, exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's great. And I invested in some of those companies as well. Right. 


    Anastasia: [00:25:01 - 00:25:03]

    So it's not bad to be an investor in one of those. 


    Alex: [00:25:03 - 00:26:59]

    No. There we go. Yeah. And look, you know, and again, so, yeah, so we're neither a lifestyle business. We need to like build a cell. I'm trying to build something impactful which I think will be a generational brand one day and it's going to take longer because we're not going to do it by Raising hundreds of millions of dollars venture capital and. But importantly the second, I guess kind of related to that point. You know, one thing I've noticed with, with founders who exit their business, there's like kind of, there's two extremes. Right. And I've seen some founders who've exited their business for very significant sums of money. They might have 50, $100 million in their bank account and they start the next business and they go out and raise lots of money from other people, which I find interesting. And then you have like kind of the opposite end of the screen scale, which is like Elon Musk. Right. Selling PayPal and putting all the proceeds into SpaceX and Tesla. Right. And I'm definitely more towards the Elon end of that scale. Right. Probably not an iq, but certainly in terms of risk appetite. So, so. And you know, I, I personally believe like if you're an exit founder and you believe in what you want to do, firstly, if you actually believe in it, probably going to be a little bit greedy. Right. And want to keep more of the company for yourself. Right. And, and, and secondly. Yeah, I just, I find it strange to kind of, I, there's a lot of dissonance in the fact that someone's got a lot of money personally, but they're raising money from other people. I, I personally can't get my head around that. But I, I'm not saying either one is wrong, but, but yeah, that's the other thing I found with post. Like there's a lot of those, those two groups, basically there's the ones who kind of do that form. They use their success to leverage their kind of personal brand to go and raise money from other people. And then there's those who kind of invest their own capital in the business because they want to keep more of it to themselves and grow it themselves. 


    Anastasia: [00:27:00 - 00:27:25]

    You know, since I look a lot at people who exited long ago, I try to zoom out and see like, you know, their stories 10, 15, 20 years later. I have to say that there is a danger there in that path and the danger is that people put their money in, they believe in the business. Exactly as you said, they feel it's natural that. I mean, I actually did that as well. But then they run out of motivation. 


    Alex: [00:27:25 - 00:27:26]

    Yes. 


    Anastasia: [00:27:26 - 00:27:43]

    And then they keep throwing good money after bad. They can't really raise money and don't want to because they lost motivation in the business. And I think this, managing your motivation is, is extremely important. And people don't expect this to happen at all because at first you have this momentum carrying you. 


    Alex: [00:27:43 - 00:27:44]

    Yes. 


    Anastasia: [00:27:44 - 00:27:51]

    Right. But then often times it's not there anymore because financial hunger is gone and people are not sure what should motivate me now. 


    Alex: [00:27:52 - 00:27:52]

    Yes. 


    Anastasia: [00:27:53 - 00:27:58]

    So have you thought about it? Do you feel anything like that happening? 


    Alex: [00:27:58 - 00:28:03]

    I, I think I'm motivated by building. 


    Anastasia: [00:28:03 - 00:28:04]

    Right. 


    Alex: [00:28:04 - 00:29:34]

    So I, as long as, you know, I'd say, look, I'm. I'm most interested when there's a lot of innovation happening and when there's a lot of, okay, you know, we're going to try and launch a new product, we're going to try and incorporate a new technology into what we're doing to kind of, you know, change the business. Right. Like, I thrive in, I guess, chaotic or changing circumstances. Right. I like, I like a bit of chaos because there's opportunities in chaos to improve things or change things. And so I think as long as there is that. And by the way, I think businesses today need to embrace, like, chaos and, and adaptability more than ever before. Right. The evidence for that is the average age or the average age of a company. Company in the S P500 is getting, you know, shorter and shorter. The average lifespan of country in the S P500, it's getting shorter and shorter. Right. Because they're getting disrupted. So you need to embrace change and you need to be constantly adapting your product if you want to be successful. And as we're seeing at the moment with AI, right, AI is going to kill a lot of huge, huge companies. So, yeah, as long as I think I have that. Right. And I'm not just some figurehead overseeing a machine with, you know, everything is predictable and repeatable processes and not much is changing. As long as I have that, I think I will always have motivation. 


    Anastasia: [00:29:34 - 00:29:39]

    So. So a $300 million exit is not the reason to stop working for you? 


    Alex: [00:29:40 - 00:31:03]

    No, no. And, and, and yeah, look, it's obviously very easy for people to say this after they've had an exit, right. Everyone always says, oh, it's not about the money after the exit. Right, yeah, of course. Yeah. Like, and, and I think that's a bit disingenuous, right? Because honestly, when I was 25, I would like, that was all a lot of what I was thinking about. Right. And what I was working towards. Right. So. So, yeah, look, it's a bit disingenuous to say that, but honestly, again, I'll go back to that point around seeking fulfillment rather than happiness. Right? Like, people have this, you know, there's an obsession with, like, today's society around seeking happiness and being happy. Yeah, I don't think it's healthy. I think, you know, if, if you're going to be, if you, if you're going to describe yourself as happy. Happy is just a relative feeling, right? And if, if what you search for is happiness, then there must be unhappiness right at the opposite end of the scale. And so the people who are constantly searching for happiness, typically they're very unhappy a lot of the time as well. And so I try and look for fulfillment and, you know, and fulfillment comes through struggle, right? It comes through trying things which are risky, which you may fail at. 


    Anastasia: [00:31:03 - 00:31:03]

    Right? 


    Alex: [00:31:03 - 00:32:14]

    You may fail at something and you may feel a bit of difficulty, disappointment, and you have to learn from that and kind of, you know, go on to the next stage and, and then when you succeed, it's really fulfilling. And whether you equate that to happiness is another question. But for me, that's kind of what I seek. And if I were to stop working after selling a company, you know, and go on this kind of journey of seeking happiness, the people who I've seen do that, who sold companies, have ended up very unhappy, right. Or they've retired too early. You know, they get drawn into probably quite an unhealthy lifestyle, even if they're, you know, excluding like alcohol or drugs or anything, even, you know, just not having a structure around your day and, you know, people who are reliant on you and people you are accountable to just makes, I think, people lose their way. Their brains slow down. Right. You typically see this with people when they retire in old age, right? Their brains immediately slow down and people say it's the start of them dying. Right? 


    Anastasia: [00:32:14 - 00:32:15]

    Yeah. 


    Alex: [00:32:16 - 00:33:09]

    And, yeah, and so for me, I, I given I'd seen some of my friends go through that, I, I thought, I definitely, I definitely don't want that to be me. And you know, if, like, financially, you know, I'll be fine for the rest of my life for sure. So. Well, unless, you know, we have World War III or something, or the dollar breaks down, but I should be fine. And so really it's about like, you know, having some fulfillment. You know, I don't yet have kids, but I do want to have kids. And I think one of the only reasons I've been successful successes, my mum set me and my dad sent me a very good example of being very hard working. And, you know, I want to set a good example for my kids. I want to be fulfilled in what I'm doing on a daily basis. I want to build things. And so, yeah, there Was never a question that I was going to stop working or retiring after a set of a company, however much I sold it for. Right. 


    Anastasia: [00:33:09 - 00:33:15]

    So for you it's about your love for challenge and building, I think. And that's where you find fulfillment. Fulfillment. 


    Alex: [00:33:15 - 00:33:17]

    That's where I find fulfillment, yeah. 


    Anastasia: [00:33:17 - 00:33:33]

    You know, I found also that lots of exited founders actually have very healthy lifestyles. Sometimes you would say even extremely healthy. They go into biohacking and they want to optimize themselves. You know, this whole obsession with longevity, you know, in our communities it's, it's very common. 


    Alex: [00:33:33 - 00:33:34]

    It is. 


    Anastasia: [00:33:34 - 00:34:03]

    But I think in this case there's a different problem there that people become so self centered, so self up obsessed that they are doing everything for themselves. But when we are very selfish, we are never fulfilled. Because when we're building a business, whether we realize it or not, we are creating something for others. And it's, it's our customers, but it's also our employees. Right. We have this sense of purpose and sense of duty and sense of meaning, giving something to the world. 


    Alex: [00:34:03 - 00:34:04]

    And sense of community. 


    Anastasia: [00:34:04 - 00:34:11]

    Yeah, and sense of community too. The community where you, you have meaning. Right. Something. 


    Alex: [00:34:11 - 00:35:51]

    I would define some of those people as, as being very unhealthy, honestly, you know, and I mean like spiritually unhealthy. I mean, you know, we can talk about Brian Johnson, but like, you know, and he's almost starting what I'd call a religion, a modern religion with what he's doing with blueprint. So there's some element of community and what he's doing. But you can see, I don't know if you've watched the documentary that just came out on Netflix about him. It's definitely worth watching. There is a sense of loneliness in his life for sure. And lack of, you know, he's completely obsessed with this. And to be honest, he's making a lot of sacrifices I guess for the wider world. Right. By testing all this stuff. But there's definitely a sense of loneliness there. And. Yeah, and, and I, that, that like from those, some of these founders. Yeah. Who like are very, you know, do all the right longevity things. They have 80 supplements they take per day. They have every, you know, they have a hyperbaric chamber and red light therapy machines in the house or whatever. It's all great. But they, that I, for me, those people are unlikely to be fulfilled. You know, I think one of the biggest big, you know, big lessons that. Well peer reviewed research shows this. Even Brian Johnson says this. Right. And he's come to recognize it. It's one of the, I think stark things that he comes, he kind of comes to conclusion in his documentary about is the people who live longest are the ones who have the most connections with other people, right. And community is so important to driving, to basically having a reason to live and feeling fulfilled, Right? 


    Anastasia: [00:35:51 - 00:35:58]

    Yeah, but the reason to live usually comes with you given to that community, right? If you sit in the middle of that community and just you have to. 


    Alex: [00:35:58 - 00:36:01]

    Have responsibility and accountability. Yeah, yeah. 


    Anastasia: [00:36:01 - 00:36:02]

    Fulfilled either. 


    Alex: [00:36:02 - 00:36:09]

    Absolutely. Yeah. So. So, yeah, I, you know, I describe some of those people as being unhealthy from that perspective. 


    Anastasia: [00:36:09 - 00:36:15]

    Alex, you mentioned religion. Can we go into the idea of starting a new religion? 


    Alex: [00:36:16 - 00:39:13]

    We could talk about it briefly. Yeah, look, look, this is, you know, this is not, it's not a short term thing. But you know, I think one of the sad things, if you look at the breakdown of religion in most of the Western world, right? As in, you know, there are more, you know, there's growing atheism and pretty much every Western democracy certainly. And I think that has had a lot of negative impacts on society as a whole. Right? And you know, if you think about people used to go to church every week, right? Whatever church that was, right? You know, whether it was synagogue, whether it's Catholic church, Anglican church, you know, all the different types of churches. And at that church they would connect with all sorts of other people from their community, all stratas of income importantly, right? It's where very wealthy people would meet the very poorest people in their local community. They'd have, they'd feel a sense of obligation to people who live near them. And I think that kind of breakdown in, in rel and in, I guess religious participation has led to a lot of other negative issues in, you know, crime rates, various other things in society today. I think there's definitely a link there. And so as that's broken down, you've seen lots of people search for that similar sense of community elsewhere, right? And a lot of those are now online, right? You have all these online communities where some of those are very healthy, some of those are not very healthy at all, right? Very negative. But people want to belong and they want to feel a sense of community. And if it's not, you know, a church, it will be something else, right? And look, maybe it's, you know, you know, it's a, it's a biohacking community, right? Maybe it's something, you know, where they feel like a real sense of community that. But people will find it somewhere. And I think that trend of of you know, I guess the traditional religions gradually, you know, know losing participation. I think that may reverse at some point soon. I think people are starting to see the value. Obviously there's a lot of challenges in the world that come from those religions, including war etc, but I think there's a lot of value from those religions. And you know, I think, and I talk about Brian Johnson again because I think what he's doing with Blueprint is, is in some ways a modern religion. Right. And he's growing a community of people who will have a shared goal, you know, don't die or whatever it is. And, and yeah, look, that's not a church religion but it is a religion which believes in the power of humans. You know, it's human, it's humanistic. Right. Like you know, that was one of. 


    Anastasia: [00:39:13 - 00:39:16]

    The big reasons the break becomes the God. 


    Alex: [00:39:16 - 00:41:10]

    Yeah. And look, we're maybe we're creating gods at the moment. That's another thing to talk about. But if you, you know, if you look at like why did the religions break down originally is because science developed and we gradually, you know, it was a move from like the theocratic to the, a human centric, humanistic view of the world which is actually we have power to do all this stuff. Right. That's one of the main reasons. But I think there's opportunity to create like modern day religions around believing in humans and humans power to you know, solve the biggest problems in the world. And Brian Johnson is doing one of those right now, I think with what he's doing with Blueprint. In my view that's a modern day religion. And so yeah, look, if one day I were to ever have time beyond sequel and you know, I'm talking about in 15 or 20 years time probably to, to do something else, you know, definitely be my goal to I don't want to say start a religion because people are going to call me a cult leader, but start something which has the, you know, the elements of a religion, the positive elements in terms of building community among people with shared values which are positive for society. Bring people together from all different parts of society, all different backgrounds or different wealth levels and, and create like positive outcomes and externalities for people. That is something that I would love to do one day. I haven't thought about it in too much detail but, but it's something I think is like I've gone from, you know, the kid at university who used to like laugh and debate at people who believed in God. Right. And I now look back thinking that is very cool and I to actually thinking, well, actually there is so, so many positive things about religion. You know, it's a shame that that is kind of has become a much smaller part of the modern world than it was like four or five hundred years ago. 


    Anastasia: [00:41:10 - 00:42:08]

    Yeah. And you know, when you casually mentioned to me, when I asked you how are you and what your plans are, and you said, oh, well, I'm thinking of starting a new religion, it was a bit shocking. But then I actually kept thinking about it for days after you mentioned it. And I thought, you know, one of the things that we probably need to do is to update stories that religions are telling us because one of the reasons we are disconnecting is because those stories are so irrelevant to our modern lives. There's so much mysticism coming from just the stories from a thousand years ago about goats and some exotic plants that we don't know how they look. Right. So if, if anything, we need to keep the core of the religion, Religion, religious message, but update the stories. 


    Alex: [00:42:08 - 00:42:09]

    That's a very good point. 


    Anastasia: [00:42:09 - 00:42:23]

    If you look at all religions, they have the same core messages there. Like, be kind, you know, love, love your neighbor, do something for others. Be good with your community. They just wrap them up in different stories. And maybe today we need new stories. 


    Alex: [00:42:23 - 00:42:24]

    Yeah, new stories. 


    Anastasia: [00:42:24 - 00:42:33]

    And then it becomes a perfectly realistic project. It's not, you know, we can, you know, you can create, you amazing at creating stories. So of course you could create a religion. Why not? 


    Alex: [00:42:33 - 00:42:55]

    Yeah, I. Look, I agree, storytelling is like the core of it. Right. And there's, you know, and there's a reason, by the way, that those stories are still very old stories. Right. It's because that, that's one of the things which, like the human mind works very well. There's a. We can remember a story. Right. I could tell you a story right now. Right. Which should last five minutes long and in a week you'd be able to retell that story. 


    Anastasia: [00:42:55 - 00:42:55]

    Yeah. 


    Alex: [00:42:55 - 00:43:20]

    If I told you just a sequence of 50 numbers now and I asked you to repeat it in five minutes, you wouldn't be able to tell me. Right. And so the human brain really is perfect, like vessel for telling stories, remembering them and pass them on through generations. So I agree, more modern stories would be useful. And then the medium that those stories told in, I think is interesting as well. 


    Anastasia: [00:43:21 - 00:44:02]

    I'd love this religion to keep the core messages because when we're trying to reinvent what's good, what's bad, as happens in some of those modern communities, I'm not sure it's very Helpful to help people. People find that spiritual fulfillment. Because, you know, for example, even with. With exited founders, you. We see it a lot. People realize when they have this space and they're not busy, they're like, oh, my God, I actually want to develop spiritually. I have no idea what it means. Yeah, right. I just. I'm so drawn to that direction, but it's too complicated. And the word spirituality is very scary for some people. 


    Alex: [00:44:03 - 00:44:03]

    People. 


    Anastasia: [00:44:03 - 00:44:06]

    Because it's associated with this confusion and mysticism and. 


    Alex: [00:44:06 - 00:44:06]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [00:44:06 - 00:44:09]

    Something unrelatable, unfortunately. 


    Alex: [00:44:09 - 00:44:29]

    Yeah. And look, a lot of religions focus on what happened after you die, and I'm not sure that that's an interesting thing to think about. I think. I think it's much more interesting to think about what happens while you're alive. Right. And. And yeah, so look, for my. My viewers. 


    Anastasia: [00:44:29 - 00:44:38]

    Afraid of death. Right, Right. So those, those ideas, they didn't come out of the blue. They address this core Fear of death. 


    Alex: [00:44:38 - 00:45:46]

    Yeah. Fear of the unknown. Yeah. They try to answer the unanswerable and use that to have power over people, which I don't necessarily think is a good thing. So, like, I think there's a way to get a lot of those values around helping other people. Being kind to your neighbor, you know, being, you know, interacting with your community. Right. Like people don't know their neighbors anymore. Right. Like in London, like people who are listening to this, who live in a big city, I bet you they know one or two of their neighbors. Used to know everyone in your street. Right. And so there are. There are ways to, I think, kind of get all those positive externalities of. Of religion and religious communities, whilst perhaps having a more humanist approach, as in believing that man has the power to do things without necessarily deferring to some sort of spiritual entity. Yeah. So I think there's an opportunity there. But look, I haven't thought about it in detail and you're. This is like the first detail conversation I've had about it. But. But yeah, look, it's definitely something for. For post sequel. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [00:45:46 - 00:46:02]

    Alex, you said that because he already has had Sickwell before you sold Velocity, you didn't end up in existential crisis. I think you may not be in an existential crisis, but you're clearly thinking about existential issues quite intently. 


    Alex: [00:46:03 - 00:46:12]

    Yes, probably. Yeah. Yeah, look, so it's a good thing I have something else to do. Otherwise, God, I'd definitely be in a crisis. Right, okay. 


    Anastasia: [00:46:12 - 00:46:15]

    But realistically, how much time you spend working on sequel? 


    Alex: [00:46:16 - 00:46:50]

    It's 90. 90% of my time, so I'D say less, less hours a week than I was with Velocity Black, to be very honest. But still, still a full time job. It's still definitely a full time job. Yeah. You know, my other job is looking after my wife. But, but yeah, it's, it's definitely 90% of my time. I, I don't really do. You know, I stopped angel investing to kind of focus my time on cp. So I'll occasionally make like one angel investment or incubation every couple of years. But yeah, sequel is 90% of my time. 


    Anastasia: [00:46:50 - 00:46:52]

    I'd love to talk about your wife. 


    Alex: [00:46:52 - 00:46:52]

    Yeah, sure. 


    Anastasia: [00:46:52 - 00:47:11]

    So Miriam worked with you in Velocity and she was with you through all the ups and downs and the Exit and everything and the sequel. So how did your exit affect her? And you're not working now together, so how did she handle that? 


    Alex: [00:47:11 - 00:47:34]

    Sure, yeah. So the story is, I mean, she started working when we were right at the beginning of Velocity. She originally joined us as like almost an intern and then became a marketing assistant. And we didn't have a relationship while she was at Velocity. And I actually, I actually fired her. We've got the firing letter framed in our hallway, but I actually fired her. Not that she didn't read anything. 


    Anastasia: [00:47:34 - 00:47:35]

    I love it. 


    Alex: [00:47:35 - 00:51:14]

    She didn't do anything wrong. She was, she was great actually, that we, we bought this company in the US and so we were moving all our marketing operations over to the US and it just wasn't feasible for her to go. So we, we let her go. And then it was, you know, a few weeks later she reached out and asked, asked me to go for lunch for some career advice. So that was the, I guess, start of the relationship. And, and then, yeah, we got married really just before the Exit, actually, or around the time that it was happening because it was quite a long process. And, and she had had a, you know, career after leaving Velocity and PR and communications. She worked in a PR firm. Then she worked for what, three words, which is like a location technology company in the uk. And then also went to work with Andre who founded a number of companies like Bumble and various other dating, dating Badoo and various dating platforms. But, but yeah, and then I, you know, she, she, we had the Exit. And before the exit, she unfortunately got quite ill with long Covid and chronic Lyme disease, which we think is, is triggered by the vaccine rather than Covid. But. But yeah. So how did the, how did the exit affect her? I think she, she. Yeah, I think she's definitely more affected by it than me. I hope she won't mind me saying that and like, worried because probably she, you know, she didn't feel in control of. And she had less information about what was happening. It was also quite, you know, the actual exit process for us was very intense. Right. It was publicly listed bank who was buying us and, you know, had the Federal Reserve involved, various other regulators, etc. So it was long and intense. And so that period was very stressful. And then obviously you get out the other side and, you know, for me, the day that it closed wasn't like, I'm super happy or whatever. You know, it was more relief that we got it done for everyone. Right. And I think the peak happiness actually was when we got the offer. Right. And then it's sort of. Then you go. So go through a big dip as though, you know, you came through all the due diligence, all the challenges that come from that. And then, you know, it closes and you're kind of relieved. Relieved that it's. That it's done. But, yeah, I think, you know, I think a lot of. I think I definitely underestimated, I think, how it would impact her and how, you know, I think it impacts relationship dynamics and things like that. I did. I don't think it impacted our relationship dynamic that much because I had already had some success in my previous career, so I didn't think it had a huge impact on us. But I think for a lot of people it does. And so it's something they should think about. And we didn't do any therapy or counseling around it, but I would suggest that's a good thing for people to do if they do go through and exit. At least have a few conversations together with someone else who can kind of media and kind of help you talk through anything that you're feeling. Because. Yeah, look, certainly as a. A man who's like, you know, my wife would say. My wife would say I'm not, you know, my emotional intelligence is. Is a fraction of hers. So you probably. You're probably underestimating the impact that it might have on your partner. Right. And so it's definitely. I think it's definitely something you should have a conversation about. 


    Anastasia: [00:51:14 - 00:51:29]

    Yeah. But it's interesting that maybe the fact that you kept working and didn't take that break also was good for your relationship because lots of. I think so that existential crisis often makes it harder. 


    Alex: [00:51:29 - 00:51:31]

    I think so. Yeah. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [00:51:31 - 00:51:35]

    And it's not working. Suddenly being at home after, you know, 10 years of not being at home. 


    Alex: [00:51:35 - 00:51:35]

    Right. 


    Anastasia: [00:51:36 - 00:51:38]

    It's not. It's not always A good thing. 


    Alex: [00:51:38 - 00:52:07]

    I don't think she would have liked that. No. So. And look, to be honest, you know, would I, if she wasn't ill, would we have taken some time off to go traveling together for a little bit? Maybe. Maybe we would have done that. Right, so. And I think that's probably a good thing to do if you can do it. But. But yeah, look, I think that it was a good thing that I wasn't just suddenly sort of, you know, sitting at home doing nothing and having existential crises every day. 


    Anastasia: [00:52:08 - 00:53:07]

    But it sounds like there's quite a lot of structure in your life for the business, but also from, you know, the responsibility to take care of Miriam. That's also, you know, a form of a structure. And maybe it's not a bad thing. You know, it's so interesting. We, we're dreaming about this financial freedom and this absolute, absolute freedom. And in the Western world, generally there's a cult of freedom. But freedom is tough. You know, it's actually, you're so confused and there is this decision paralysis and there's guilt because you think, oh, I'm free now, so I should be doing this, that and the other thing, but I'm not doing it. Freedom is so tough. And talking about happiness, it doesn't bring happiness. It brings a challenge. It brings an opportunity to make your life more fulfilling because you can step back and think about things and learn new skills or, you know, reassess your own position in the world to make it more intentional. But freedom requires work to, to be converted into fulfillment. 


    Alex: [00:53:09 - 00:53:43]

    I agree. Yeah. And freedom brings about a lot of ambiguity. And a lot of people don't know how to deal with ambiguity. As you said, they, and particularly founders, feel like they need to do something. Right. So they feel uncomfortable doing nothing. And so if you have that void and you have that freedom, they're tempted to fill it with lots of things. Right. And that's where they go and do all this stuff. I'm gonna look at, you know, cash flowing businesses or whatever it is. Right. So, yeah, I'd agree with you because. 


    Anastasia: [00:53:43 - 00:54:06]

    Because I think your situation is really great in many ways because you started the new business before you exited, so you just kind of transition smoothly. But I think once you've exited, then you have to take a bit of sabbatical because an exit triggers so many emotional challenges, then you're so likely to jump into a wrong activity. 


    Alex: [00:54:06 - 00:54:08]

    Yeah, that's true. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [00:54:08 - 00:54:13]

    Just because somebody else is doing it. Because when you started SQL, you had a chance to think about it. 


    Alex: [00:54:13 - 00:54:17]

    And just, and it was before, it was before the exit. 


    Anastasia: [00:54:17 - 00:54:21]

    It was before the exit. You were not affected by all this freedom? 


    Alex: [00:54:21 - 00:54:30]

    No, yeah, look, absolutely. And look, and the challenge with the freedom is even bigger if you suddenly have a lot of financial resources. Right. 


    Anastasia: [00:54:30 - 00:54:31]

    Because it's like, oh, you really have freedom. 


    Alex: [00:54:31 - 00:55:05]

    There's no, let's just throw some money at this. And you know, so yeah, look, that, I think that's definitely a challenge for a lot of people. So, yeah, taking some real time to. And look, maybe that time is three months, maybe it's six months, maybe it's a couple of years. Right. Like, however long it is for people. Right. But I feel that for most founders, that for most of them the fulfillment will come through building something again, I think. So what that is may take you a while to figure out, but I feel like for most of them that's what will bring them fulfillment. 


    Anastasia: [00:55:05 - 00:55:10]

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. That brings me to angel investing. 


    Alex: [00:55:10 - 00:55:10]

    Yes. 


    Anastasia: [00:55:10 - 00:55:14]

    And your, you know, evolution of, of how you think about it. 


    Alex: [00:55:15 - 00:55:29]

    Yeah, Well, I started, I started angel investing around the same time as I started Velocity. So it's been like over 10 years now. We should be enough time to fix, figure out if you're any good, any good at it or not. 


    Anastasia: [00:55:30 - 00:55:36]

    So, so yeah, you become good hopefully while doing it. So maybe you were not good on day one. 


    Alex: [00:55:37 - 00:57:45]

    Yeah, look, I think there's definitely some luck involved. But yeah, look, I, I, I'm, I started angel. Like, you've got to think about, like, why are you angel investing? Like, what are the goals? Like, you know, financial returns may be one of them, but typically it isn't if you're not like a full time investor. Typically it's like you want to learn about things or you want to help other companies and you feel like that's a good way to start helping other businesses. And for me, it was definitely a mixture of those two. It was like learning from other founders, helping them a bit and then financial returns. And yeah, I start, I started off just, you know, because when you're a founder, you just see other founder friends, like starting businesses and the ones that you think are good, like, okay, I'm investing money in that and got lucky with the first couple and when they, you know, when they exited, thought, oh, I should really think about this a lot more. I should structure this, you know, and went through this whole period where I was like using quite complicated, like models to assess things at a very early stage, which is just a big mistake and complete waste of time, and then just went back to the you know, it's like that midwit graph, right, where you've got, you know, you've got the bell curve and then you've got the, you know, the really smart guy, really dumb guy, and then you've got the midwit. Midwit's got like a thousand questions in their head and all these models they're using to assess whether to make an investment. I'm talking about angel investors, slightly different if you're a VC firm, but. And then you've got the midwit, you've got the really dumb guy and the really smart guy. And they're both like just back great founders, right? And that's ultimately what it comes down to at the very early stage stage. So I went through a period where I was like hyper analytical and then regressed back to my original process, which was just, yeah, like, is this a really amazing founder? You should back them and don't think too much about the product and the market because ultimately the best founders will pivot and find their way to the best product and the best market. So. So yeah, and yeah, had some, some success with it and am now helping through SQL. Our first asset class is venture and we're helping our. 


    Anastasia: [00:57:46 - 00:57:57]

    But this is basically what I'm trying to understand, how that experience of angel investing directly transformed into the idea to start SQL. 


    Alex: [00:57:58 - 01:00:31]

    So, yeah, I had a WhatsApp group where I'd share deal flow and it grew quite significantly. And then I had friends and clients even of Velocity Black, but friends who were in the world of sport and entertainment who wanted to invest. And you know, there were two, there are two real, I think, challenges with, with startup investing if you're trying to do it really well. And one of them is getting access into the best companies, right. And even if you see them, right, which is the first challenge, like just seeing these, these companies, okay, now you've seen them and you know a round's happening. How do you get into them? Right? And as a founder and operator, you have a slight advantage, right? Because founders really like raising from other founders because they're not going to, they kind of understand the problems that they're facing. They're going to be helpful, they're going to have relevant experience. They're not going to cause them loads of problems like some other professional investors might do. But I saw with some of my friends who are athletes and in the entertainment industry, they were able to get into any deal they wanted to. Right. And I thought that was something interesting that. And they were also able to help Them post, post investment, right, and help accelerate them. They're very high profiles. They can help tell their story and amplify that story to tens of millions of people. Right, Quite easily. And they also have that, you know, athletes have a very similar mindset to founders, right? Like they've, they have to be, you know, they have to be very hardworking and persistent. They're both playing power law games. Like very small percentage of athletes reach the top, very small percentage of founders end up being successful. And so there's a lot of ways they can help beyond just sort of marketing and helping tell the story. And so I thought that was an interesting opportunity there to kind of leverage the talent and in some cases expertise, right, because we're going to expand beyond athletes into the entertainment industry, eventually into exited founders, anyone who can bring expertise to the underlying assets. So how can we leverage that talent to get access the very best investment opportunities and help them invest in them and us invest in them and then post investment, help accelerate those companies and hopefully generate real added value. And added value is, is something which a lot of people talk about. I can just tell you as a founder and from my founder friends, 95 of investors at no Value and, and most of them, well, like I'd say. 


    Anastasia: [01:00:31 - 01:00:33]

    Even quite detrimental, right? 


    Alex: [01:00:34 - 01:02:39]

    Like no. And, and look, let's be honest, I'm not claiming that any of our athletes or us are going to be the reason that one of our portfolio companies succeeds. And you will find this, you know, no investor will really make your company right. They can break it right, if you have the wrong investor on your board. But, but yeah, that was the opportunity. Like, you know, really, if you're thinking about like a startup that wants to solve a big problem for the world in like healthcare, climate, education, you know, what do they need to succeed? They need capital and resources and they need the world's attention, right? And if they can get those two things and they've got a good product, they can, you know, they've got a good chance of succeeding. And so with SQL, we're really trying to help them on those first two things, right. We can help obviously with capital and then we can help tell their story and get it out there into the world and help accelerate them on that path. And yeah, we'll see if the thesis works. It's still very early for SQL at least, but it evolved from my personal angel investing and having some friends who are athletes. Athletes. Two of my other exit founder friends, Nick Tolson, Andrew Webster, who founded Design My Night, originally approached me about hey, we should start a syndicate for athletes. And I was like, yeah, that's interesting. And then I came back to them and I was like, actually I think we can do something a lot bigger. Here's what I would do. And they were like, okay, can we invest? And so, yeah, we started it. So, yeah, it kind of evolved very organically from, you know, it does feel like I have very good founder market fit for it. Right. In terms of I, I've been a founder, obviously. I had 10 years angel investing. I understand what it's like to work with this highly demanding, highly successful, high net worth clients from my first business and had a good network in sport and entertainment. So it kind of felt like all the pieces were fitting together and that it's something that has been building up for the past decade rather than from me just having the idea and then going out and figuring all these things out. Right. It felt very natural to me to start it. 


    Anastasia: [01:02:39 - 01:03:42]

    So. You know what I find fascinating from my standpoint, because I am obsessed about post exit journeys. Right. And on your website you talk about legacy. That's the word you offer to your clients. And I think it's actually fascinating because athletes don't have very long careers, so they end up in this journey, which is post exit, to just exit their, their careers as opposed to business. And I have amazing friends who are athletes and I saw them going through very similar psychological issues. So I, I thought it was fascinating to offer these people legacy in a way as a, as a help to transition into something meaningful. By associating themselves with companies that are solving really important problems, you'll help them avoid this void that we were talking about. 


    Alex: [01:03:42 - 01:03:44]

    Absolutely. Yeah. That's very good paragraph. 


    Anastasia: [01:03:44 - 01:03:52]

    I think it's, it's amazing, amazing value that you are given this sense of legacy, creating legacy. 


    Alex: [01:03:52 - 01:03:52]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:03:52 - 01:03:56]

    It's not just value, it's not just wealth creation. 


    Alex: [01:03:56 - 01:07:37]

    No, yeah, look, we, we say that we're helping them build a legacy for their families and for the world. Right. And like for the world it's about, you know, hopefully bringing capital and the world's attention to these, you know, game changing technologies and companies which are going to solve all these big problems. Right. And for them and their families, obviously money is a part of it, but as you said, like they, you know, their careers are very short. Right. And this is why we called it sequel. It's like what comes next after your relatively short career in sport? You know, in the NFL, it's like four years. Right. It's very short. Mainly mainly because of injury. But even then, most athletes, by the time they're in their mid-30s, they're retired, right? So, so how, and you know, that's a long, there's still a lot of life left after that, right? And, and obviously part of that you see a lot of problems as you'll see with founders after they, after that, you know, that their first career ends, right. And they go through a lot of existential crises, you know, some of them financially driven, right? Because suddenly your income drops to zero. And you know, if your lifestyle, it's not like you've had an exit, right. And some cases it's more aggressive than a founder's transition out of their career. So they, you know, some of it's financially driven and you know, the whole family has to get used to a low, you know, a slightly different lifestyle, to be honest, if they haven't prepared well for their retirement. And so, you know, our approach to this, to SQL was okay, firstly we want to help them build wealth so that they're set up very well for the rest of their life beyond the, the end of their sporting career. Right. Secondly, we want to help them make better decisions. Right? And so what you'll find is a lot of solutions that, for athletes that are out there, whether it's these athlete led funds, athlete led athlete marketed funds or other sort of wealth solutions. Financial advisors, what most of them do is treat athletes like children. They try and take away responsibility and decision making from them and they manage everything for them. And in some way that's a, that's a good service, right? Okay, I don't have to think about it, but what happens after the end of your career when none of those people are there anymore, right? Because they're not interested in you, because you're not earning lots of money anymore. What happens then? How do you make decisions every day? How do you, do you know enough to make basic like financial planning decisions? Do you know enough to make good business decisions, good career decisions? And so our approach was we're actually not going to manage all this stuff for you. We're going to give you the information, the tools and the education through like short form video content and events and things. So you learn very quickly about investing, about entrepreneurship, about startups, about big business. And we're going to enable you to be good decision makers. So we're going to educate you and we're partnering with all these top education institutions to give you like accredited courses on this stuff through, through the membership. And so not only do we set you up, hopefully by helping you invest in the very best, you know, assets out there which, you know, on the right time frame are going to provide very good returns into your retirement from your first career in sport. But we're going to set you up with the knowledge to be able to make decisions for yourself, whether it's during your playing career or after your playing career. More importantly, when preparing, pretty much everyone else around you goes away. Right. And that's where you find athletes have a lot of problems. They get into financial difficulties, they have health problems. And so we're taking the approach of, which is a harder approach, by the way. And it's much more expensive for us to do this. And it like we have to invest lots of money to create like relevant content and to find ways to engage athletes. And it'd be much easier for us to just go and manage their money for them. 


    Anastasia: [01:07:37 - 01:07:40]

    You make them work, but if you don't like that. 


    Alex: [01:07:40 - 01:07:41]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:07:41 - 01:07:42]

    So it would be easier. 


    Alex: [01:07:42 - 01:08:07]

    It'd be much easier to do it the other way. Right. And look, and this is our first, you know, our first target market is definitely those growth mindset athletes who want to learn this stuff. Right. And eventually we will have some managed solutions and wealth management products. But we're really focused at the moment on, you know, if we really want them to build a legacy for their families, they need to have the knowledge to make good decisions. Right. And so we're, we're equipping them to do that through the platform. 


    Anastasia: [01:08:07 - 01:08:44]

    You know, lots of existed founders could, could use that because it's very hard to transfer from an entrepreneur mindset into an investor mindset. And then we don't have tools. Just because we are dealing with money much more than an average athlete doesn't make us good investment investors. Quite the opposite. We often have this hubris post taxes. Right. We think, and you know, we have lots of friends in common who invested a lot in angel deals. I did, by the way, as well. I didn't do a very good job just to realize that it's very different from running your own business. 


    Alex: [01:08:44 - 01:08:48]

    Yes, it is. Yeah. And it's almost the opposite mindset that you need to be a successful investor. 


    Anastasia: [01:08:49 - 01:08:56]

    Because it's so interesting with angel investing. It's the thing that people do most often post exit. 


    Alex: [01:08:56 - 01:08:56]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:08:56 - 01:09:53]

    But it's also the thing that people who exited long ago mentioned first when I asked them, what do you regret? And I think the answer is not, it's not that angel investing is wrong per se, but we have no idea how to do it. But we are very Generous with founders, we feel so much compassion. And then we also miss the whole entrepreneurial buzz and we think, oh, if I invest here, I'll get a lot. Little bit of that back. So there are all these wrong reason, wrong meaning irresponsible financially reasons to. To invest or just we do it for fun together with our friends because they do. We get excited and all these impulsive decisions. And sometimes, by the way, it is greed because even if we have good post, even if we could have good exit wealth, we start panicking and we think, oh my God, I need to invest some somewhere because otherwise my bankers will only give me a 3% return. 


    Alex: [01:09:53 - 01:10:01]

    Yes. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely. Yeah, there's a look. At some point we will, we will definitely address exit value. 


    Anastasia: [01:10:01 - 01:10:10]

    Yeah. This whole education around angel investing is so important, but it's also so hard because you're right, you can't apply difficult, complex formulas to this. 


    Alex: [01:10:10 - 01:10:10]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:10:10 - 01:10:20]

    So so much of it is just psychology and also understanding, you know, whether this founder will work this hard for 10, 15 years to deliver results. 


    Alex: [01:10:20 - 01:11:13]

    You want to make it very. So we make it very easy for people. Right. So we do like, they don't see all the thousands of companies that we look at that we don't invest in our whole DD process, our investment committee, all the memos and stuff we write. And they don't see any of that. They just see a very simple video memo with a very slick app and they're able to make any easy decision. But in order to do that, they need to, like, have some knowledge. So, yeah, I think the education part's super important and we will definitely address extra founders at some point. But like, I have like, very much like a. Definitely a disciple of Peter Thiel in terms of, you know, focusing on a very niche market initially makes a lot of sense and focusing all your marketing and resources around that niche market, winning in it and, you know, effectively creating a monopoly in that market and then moving into adjacent markets. 


    Anastasia: [01:11:13 - 01:11:14]

    It makes a lot of sense. 


    Alex: [01:11:14 - 01:11:26]

    We'll get there eventually. But. And as tempting as it would be to do it now, I think it's, you know, I think it's stronger for us from a marketing perspective, from our messaging, to be very focused on. On athletes initially, and then we'll move into entertainment. 


    Anastasia: [01:11:26 - 01:11:32]

    And it's not just marketing. You're learning from your customers. Right. How to deliver the result that. That they actually want. 


    Alex: [01:11:32 - 01:11:35]

    Exactly. Precisely. So, yeah, we'll see. 


    Anastasia: [01:11:35 - 01:11:41]

    Makes a lot of sense for you. But poor exited founders still lack education. 


    Alex: [01:11:42 - 01:11:53]

    Yeah, yeah, I think Some of them do. And yeah, and you're, you're right. Like the, it's funny that there is hubris, Right. Because people think, oh, I've been, you know, I'm a successful entrepreneur, you know, I know what I'm doing. Right. I make small decisions. 


    Anastasia: [01:11:53 - 01:11:58]

    At least athletes are usually realistic about their financial acumen. 


    Alex: [01:11:58 - 01:11:58]

    Yes. 


    Anastasia: [01:11:58 - 01:12:00]

    But not, not successful founders. 


    Alex: [01:12:00 - 01:12:11]

    That's funny. Yeah. Is. You're, you're absolutely right on that point. Yeah. The athletes are actually much more conservative and are much more careful than a lot of exit founders. 


    Anastasia: [01:12:11 - 01:12:13]

    Well, at. At least I guess realistic. 


    Alex: [01:12:13 - 01:12:13]

    Yes. 


    Anastasia: [01:12:14 - 01:12:16]

    Realistic about their own abilities. 


    Alex: [01:12:16 - 01:12:24]

    Yeah. But we'll see. Exit founders is probably. Yeah. Probably two to three years away. We could start looking at that. 


    Anastasia: [01:12:24 - 01:12:42]

    So in terms of what type of entrepreneur are you, if you had to choose between a creator, an operator and an investor as your natural type, what would be your immediate reaction without overanalyzing it? 


    Alex: [01:12:43 - 01:12:44]

    Creator. 


    Anastasia: [01:12:44 - 01:12:46]

    Yeah, that's what I thought. 


    Alex: [01:12:46 - 01:12:47]

    Yeah, exactly. 


    Anastasia: [01:12:47 - 01:12:52]

    But you know, it also means that you'll probably get bored board as soon as your, your business becomes. 


    Alex: [01:12:52 - 01:12:55]

    Well, it depends. It depends, right. This look. This look. I. 


    Anastasia: [01:12:55 - 01:12:58]

    That's to do this business for 15, 20 years. 


    Alex: [01:12:58 - 01:15:45]

    Let's see, like a velocity black. I did step back to be chairman to start something new. Right, Exactly. Definitely an element of that. But let me like, and I don't want to say we weren't innovating at all at that point, but we were innovating far less. And you know, one of the reasons we were able to successfully go fully remote is because it was a very, like a lot of the business was completely systematized at this point. Right. And process in place and everything. And you know, there was certainly less creativity involved in the day to day work. I don't think that has to be the case as you grow a company. And I think you can grow to be, you know, even a $10 billion business and still have huge amounts of creativity involved in your day to day work, if you think about it proactively. Right. And there's this, there's this real like, push from, like. And to be honest, pretty much every business book, any person that advises you, any VC that sits on your board, they want to systematize things, they want to put process in place everywhere and they want to make the business easy to manage. Right. Because as it grows in complexity, you have like chaos emerges. Right. If you don't have, if you, you know, so, so my approach is a lot more, you know, I love what Reed Hastings did with Netflix, which is like the way to address complexity in a business is not to put in place more and more processes. Right. It's just to have to be extremely rigorous about the level of talent you have in the company. Right. And making sure you have the very best people in the company means that they can have more freedom, they can be more creative because you don't need to have all these processes in place like kind of solving for the lowest common denominator, like team member who's the guy who makes a mistake and it costs the business $10 million or whatever. Right. So the higher quality talent bar you have, the more, I think as the business grows, you're able to embrace creativity. You're able to embrace not necessarily having a completely systematized, you know, business where you're just pressing a button and everything else works. Right. And so I think there's a way to build a very big business and I think some people have proven it where you don't, you know, you can continue to have that creativity, you can continue to launch new products, you can continue to innovate and it, you know, and you can resist the demand from investors, capital markets, people with MBAs, no offense to people with MBAs, to kind of sit systematize and make your business too process driven. Right. And so I think you can, like if you're a founder and you're a creator type, I think you can, you know, there is a way to resist the demand to kind of be more of an operator. Right. There's a way to resist that. And so I hope to be able to prove that with SQL. 


    Anastasia: [01:15:45 - 01:15:50]

    Yeah. But I guess you still need a partner or employees who are natural and. 


    Alex: [01:15:50 - 01:15:51]

    Luckily I do have that. 


    Anastasia: [01:15:51 - 01:15:55]

    Yeah, they should be very good, very talented. 


    Alex: [01:15:55 - 01:16:16]

    Philip, who's my co, founder and cto and he's, he's definitely a lot more, look, he's, I'd still say he's, he's a creator, but he's a lot more systematic than I am. And then I have a VP of operations, Sophie, who's very, very, she's definitely an operator. Yeah. So without Sophie and Philip, my approach would just lead to chaos. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:16:16 - 01:16:20]

    Because a creator would, would want some chaos. 


    Alex: [01:16:20 - 01:16:20]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:16:20 - 01:16:22]

    Otherwise you cannot create. 


    Alex: [01:16:22 - 01:16:30]

    And yeah, and I do enjoy chaos. Yeah. I, I frequently, you know, frequent phrase I used to use at Velocity Black, and I still use it is embrace the chaos. Right. 


    Anastasia: [01:16:30 - 01:16:59]

    But I, I found that it's so important to understand who you are. Even though I generally don't like type, you know, put putting people into any pigeonholes. But this Particular thing. I think, think it's so important to understand because so many of us rush into this idea that, oh, I'm going to be this amazing private equity investor or I'll buy someone else's business. But if you are a creator, you're not going to succeed in this because you. You start hating that. 


    Alex: [01:16:59 - 01:17:00]

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:17:00 - 01:17:04]

    You have to. You have to start from scratch if you're a creator. 


    Alex: [01:17:04 - 01:17:04]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:17:04 - 01:17:16]

    Whether you like it or no, it has to be something very creative. Creative. It comes with just this passive kind of lifestyle. Oh, I'll help make some. Some other business. Scale scaling is not what creators do very well. 


    Alex: [01:17:16 - 01:17:32]

    Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, like, you have to embrace what you enjoy for sure if you're going to succeed and then, you know, hiring the very best talent to help in the areas that you don't enjoy. Right. And. And where they can have. Where they can actually add structure and succeed. 


    Anastasia: [01:17:33 - 01:17:46]

    I think there is, you know, being a creator feels cooler than being an operator. So some people also think they're creators and don't want to embrace the fact that they're operators. And that is also not helpful. 


    Alex: [01:17:46 - 01:17:48]

    Yeah, def. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:17:48 - 01:17:49]

    You know what I mean. 


    Alex: [01:17:49 - 01:17:51]

    I know what you mean. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:17:51 - 01:17:53]

    It's kind of sexier to be a creator. 


    Alex: [01:17:53 - 01:18:06]

    It is. Yeah. Yeah. And look, with my first business with Velocity Black, I was basically forced into the operator role. Right. Like, I had to do that because Zia was better at being the creator with that business. And which is interesting because he. 


    Anastasia: [01:18:06 - 01:18:09]

    He was the one coming from Goldman Sachs. Yeah, he would be. 


    Alex: [01:18:09 - 01:18:36]

    He's very creative. He's very creative. But look, we look to be clear, we both were inputting on product and stuff as well. But. But I was forced into doing, like, the operator role, which was, you know, setting up all these repeatable processes, scaling the operations team, etc. And, you know, which was the revenue part of the business. But it was still. It was very much an operator role. And there's definitely. That probably like, led to a lot of the stress that I had Right. On that journey. 


    Anastasia: [01:18:37 - 01:18:38]

    And frustration. 


    Alex: [01:18:38 - 01:18:41]

    And frustration. Yeah. What would you say you are, Anastasia? 


    Anastasia: [01:18:41 - 01:18:56]

    A creator. And, you know, when I found out in my second business, I hired a CEO quite relatively early on, and that person was so much better than me in operations. 


    Alex: [01:18:56 - 01:18:57]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:18:57 - 01:19:18]

    It was a very humbling experience, but also it made me think, okay, great. So I probably shouldn't be forcing myself to do that because like you, I was very stressed by all of that. I thought, okay, that's fine. I just embrace who I am. And next time I'LL start my next business with a partner who is very happy being an operator. 


    Alex: [01:19:18 - 01:21:05]

    Yeah, yeah, look, that's, that makes sense. Yeah. And look, we'll see, we'll see what happens as the business grows. Like, I, I think you can have creator CEOs for sure as long as you have a very good like operator partner. And yeah, look, I, and it also depends on the type of business. You know, we're, our clients are individuals who expect to have a relationship with the CEO. Right. Like that's their expectation. And I think that will always be the case. Right. Even if, even if everything we do is through technology and it's through content. You know, I might have, I've spoken to all of our clients at least once, but they feel like they know me very well through our content. Right. And, and you know, they engage through, through, you know, messaging and stuff through our product as well. So they feel like they have a real relationship with us even though it's very tech driven. But I think you can't, like. Yeah, look, depending on the business, I think creator CEOs generally are more successful. That's, that's just my personal view. And I think typically, and a lot of, I think a lot of founders fit more in the creator like profile out of the three you mentioned. And I think typically, you know, and you can look at this in the public markets, right. The founder led businesses still significantly outperform non founder led businesses. Right, Definitely. And look, you know, Elon's obviously an extreme example, but you know, he's, he's, he's not, he's certainly not an operator. He's, he's clearly a creator. Right. And, but he has amazing, you know, he has Gwynne at SpaceX. Right, exactly. She's really running everything. Right. 


    Anastasia: [01:21:05 - 01:21:09]

    She's, she's, she's doing what you, what you said, you know, via amazing people. 


    Alex: [01:21:09 - 01:21:21]

    Yeah, so, so yeah, I think, you know, I think you've just gotta, yeah, you've got to recognize which one of those you are and make sure you complement yourself with partners who can help with the other areas. 


    Anastasia: [01:21:21 - 01:21:35]

    Okay, so you, you're building these relationships with your clients. That makes a lot of sense. How about in your personal life? Do you feel lonely at the top? Do you feel you have the right tribe, the right community for you at the moment, at this stage in your life? 


    Alex: [01:21:37 - 01:22:25]

    Yeah, look, I'd say I have a very small number of friends right outside of work. Like very, very small. And mostly they're friends who I've known since school. Right. So it's still so very long lasting relationships and. But very small. I'm talking about like five or six people. Right. And probably two who I'd see regularly. So. And a lot of that is just down to how much energy I have to dedicate towards relationships outside of work and outside of looking after Miriam and my dog. So I keep it very small and concentrated and I'm very happy with that. And I'm probably like increasingly like kind of grumpy old man type person. Like, do I need more. 


    Anastasia: [01:22:26 - 01:22:28]

    You don't come across, do I need. 


    Alex: [01:22:28 - 01:23:23]

    More friends now, you know? Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, look, I would like to. I generally, I don't have much of a social life at the moment. Again, mainly like if Miriam was better and was able to leave the house, like we would. We'd obviously be so. Well, she'd be forcing me to socialize a lot more, let me put it that way. But as she used to before she was ill, so. So yeah, look, I think I'm happy with my social life as it is. I like, you know, the things that like give me inspiration or make me kind of fulfilled outside of work is doing things like adventures or whatever with my friends. Right. Like couple of times a year doing something crazy or fun, you know, like last year I ran an ultra marathon in Africa with. With Russ Cook. Did you see that guy who ran the whole length of Africa? 


    Anastasia: [01:23:24 - 01:23:24]

    No. 


    Alex: [01:23:24 - 01:23:27]

    Really interesting. I called Russ Cook. He ran the first guy to run. 


    Anastasia: [01:23:27 - 01:23:29]

    So you did it with him? 


    Alex: [01:23:29 - 01:23:38]

    The last, the last leg I flew out to at two days notice. I decided to fly out with some friends and we ran the lot and I'd never run a marathon before and. 


    Anastasia: [01:23:38 - 01:23:39]

    It was like, how did this feel? 


    Alex: [01:23:39 - 01:23:43]

    40 degrees heat. I mean, it was intense, but I did it right. I completely. 


    Anastasia: [01:23:43 - 01:23:45]

    But you wanted to do something crazy. 


    Alex: [01:23:45 - 01:23:49]

    Yeah, yeah. So I like doing that kind of thing a couple of times a year with a small group of friends. 


    Anastasia: [01:23:49 - 01:23:53]

    That's something that sounds like something a creator would do, not an operator, probably. 


    Alex: [01:23:53 - 01:23:56]

    Yeah, yeah. With like almost no planning. 


    Anastasia: [01:23:56 - 01:23:57]

    Exactly. 


    Alex: [01:23:57 - 01:24:34]

    So, yeah, no, those, those are the kind of things I. Look, I, you know, I think people go through different phases right. In their life. I don't have any kids yet. I do want to have a lot of kids and, and so that will obviously take up a lot of time when I have kids. But. But yeah, look, I think if you get in, you know, who did I see? You said it the other day, the situation you want to be in is you want to be really looking forward to Going to work in the morning, and you want to be really looking forward to coming home. Right. And if those two things are true, you probably have like a, you know, happy or fulfilled life. Right. 


    Anastasia: [01:24:34 - 01:24:35]

    Yeah. 


    Alex: [01:24:35 - 01:24:37]

    And so I definitely feel that at the moment. So. 


    Anastasia: [01:24:37 - 01:24:40]

    I agree. It's. It's a perfect formula. 


    Alex: [01:24:40 - 01:24:40]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:24:41 - 01:24:47]

    And then, of course, you know, you also need to make sure that you feel satisfied with what you have. 


    Alex: [01:24:47 - 01:24:48]

    Yes. 


    Anastasia: [01:24:48 - 01:24:57]

    Sometimes it's our fears or inner battles that actually prevent us from realizing that we can have happily go to work and happily come back home. 


    Alex: [01:24:57 - 01:24:58]

    Yes. 


    Anastasia: [01:24:58 - 01:24:59]

    We just need to think about it. 


    Alex: [01:24:59 - 01:25:11]

    There we go. Right? Yeah, it's, you know, it's like, it's that classic conundrum which is like, desire is both the source probably of all human progress ever. 


    Anastasia: [01:25:12 - 01:25:12]

    Yeah. 


    Alex: [01:25:12 - 01:25:37]

    And it's also probably the source of all human misery. Right. And so it's like those two sides of that coin, like, knowing when to control your desire and be satisfied and, you know, be fulfilled, I think is like the real challenge. Right. So you still want that desire because that's what kind of, you know, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be for money or anything, but you want the desire to do things, to achieve things. 


    Anastasia: [01:25:37 - 01:26:00]

    Don't you think desires can be very different? Because it depends on where. Where your desire comes from. So if it comes from fear or greed or comparison. Comparison, which is a fear. Right. Of feeling worse than other people. That feels very different from the desire to solve a big problem for the humanity. 


    Alex: [01:26:00 - 01:26:03]

    Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. 


    Anastasia: [01:26:03 - 01:26:06]

    The level of fulfillment is very different when you get what you desire. 


    Alex: [01:26:07 - 01:26:26]

    Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So again, let's take this to extreme. Like, what do you think Elon Musk thinks? Like, because, you know, firstly, he's obviously achieved amazing things with humanity. Do you think he feels happy? Do you think he's, like, fulfilled? 


    Anastasia: [01:26:26 - 01:26:27]

    I think he feels fulfilled. 


    Alex: [01:26:27 - 01:26:28]

    I think he feels fulfilled. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:26:29 - 01:26:31]

    Happiness probably doesn't happen very often to him. 


    Alex: [01:26:31 - 01:26:32]

    I agree. 


    Anastasia: [01:26:32 - 01:26:53]

    You know, there's this, this interview where he actually said that, you know, guys, you don't want to be like me. Like, you know, my life is so hard. It's so difficult. It's so this and so that. But then you look at him and you're like, yeah, but you're fulfilled. You know, when I read this biography of Steve Jobs. 


    Alex: [01:26:53 - 01:26:54]

    Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:26:54 - 01:27:36]

    I completely changed how I thought about him because for me, for many years, I thought of him as a miserable man, really, who sacrificed so that. He was a man amazing at what he did as a. As an Apple founder. But I thought but, you know, he was a miserable man. Because people often talk about how he was a miserable man, but when I read his biography, I thought, no, he was actually deeply fulfilled. He just didn't care much about this, you know, happiness. Yeah, he didn't chase it. He didn't chase it. And then people thought, oh, because he's not chasing it, he's miserable. But this is what you kept talking about in the beginning of our conversation. You know, fulfillment and happiness are different. 


    Alex: [01:27:36 - 01:28:07]

    Things, and fulfillment comes through struggle. Right. It doesn't. It again, it comes from being in uncomfortable places and doing uncomfortable things and. And from taking risks and being willing to fail. And unfortunately, like pretty much every piece of media out there, mainstream media, education, our education system system, psychiatrists, and mental health and public health systems, all teach us to search for happiness. And that's why I think so many people around. 


    Anastasia: [01:28:07 - 01:28:08]

    Miserable. 


    Alex: [01:28:08 - 01:28:23]

    Yeah. Honestly, I think it is. Right. It's like the pursuit of happiness leads to misery and. Yeah, look, I, you know, which. Which biography was it, by the way? Was it the Isaacson? Yeah, I still haven't read it. I need to read. 


    Anastasia: [01:28:23 - 01:28:46]

    It's fantastic because there are so many other biographies, but this one was the one who, for me, made it very clear that even though Walter often talks about how Steve made other people miserable and how he felt miserable and how he was angry, but if you look through that, it's actually very clear that he was fulfilled. 


    Alex: [01:28:46 - 01:28:49]

    Yeah. And that's the pursuit of excellence. Right. You have to care about what you're working on. 


    Anastasia: [01:28:50 - 01:28:50]

    On. 


    Alex: [01:28:50 - 01:29:50]

    Right. You know, and we often get taught, like, you know, I do this leader, I did this leadership training with my team, and we had a former U.S. navy Seal commander and. And FBI special agent guy called Errol Dobler. Really good guy. Highly recommend him as a leadership trainer. Came and did a lot of work with us. And a lot of what he told, you know, a lot of what he talks about is like, you know, controlling your emotions or at least knowing how you're feeling and kind of separating that from making a decision and reacting. Right. And. And I think a lot of people in, like, the corporate world or in the startup world. Mean. Interpret that to mean don't show any emotion. Right. That's not what it means at all. It means being conscious about the emotion you're showing. And I'm very sure that when Steve Jobs was having those outbursts and, you know, smashing the prototypes on the ground. 


    Anastasia: [01:29:50 - 01:29:51]

    Intentional. 


    Alex: [01:29:51 - 01:30:18]

    It was intentional. And he, like. And it wasn't fake. That was how he's feeling. But he had a reaction, he thought about it and he was intentional in how he, he reacted. And, and, and, and that is, that is how it should be, right? And that is, that is demonstrating a care for your work and that you care for your team. Team, right. It sounds strange, but it is showing that you care for your team because you want them to care about this as much you want them to succeed on the project and succeed in their careers and try. 


    Anastasia: [01:30:18 - 01:30:24]

    And I think he cared about some members of his team, those who were aligned with him. 


    Alex: [01:30:24 - 01:30:25]

    Probably. Yeah. Yeah. 


    Anastasia: [01:30:26 - 01:30:27]

    Probably not the rest. 


    Alex: [01:30:27 - 01:30:30]

    Well, there we go. He should, you know, he should have had a better hiring process. 


    Anastasia: [01:30:30 - 01:30:37]

    But no, he was just brutally honest to those who didn't quite pick form or didn't quite care. 


    Alex: [01:30:37 - 01:31:21]

    But that is caring. But that's caring. That is caring, right? This is what I tell my team, right? Like, you know, the, the biggest gift you can give someone is feedback, right? And, and real feedback, honest feedback, right? And you know, there's all these books, Radical Candor and various others that go through this. But that is caring, right? It's, you know, telling someone something's great when it isn't. Is that is not caring. That, that is, you know, that's, that's jeopardizing someone's growth potential. That's jeopardizing someone's future career, right? So, you know, yeah, I, I, I, I will definitely read that biography. I've, I've listened to a few before, but I haven't actually read that one, so I will read it. 


    Anastasia: [01:31:22 - 01:31:30]

    So, Alex, my last question, I always ask the same question it the end, how do you want to be remembered? 


    Alex: [01:31:33 - 01:33:24]

    So it's funny because I was reading over Christmas my, I was reading over Christmas my yearbook from my primary school. And you write like a little page this when I was 12 years old and you write like, you know, there's certain things you have to write on this page. And there were two things in this page that really stood out to me. So the first one was I said, and by the way, I wrote this, I would have written this in like April 2000. So it's like peak of the first Internet boom, right? And one of the first things, one of those things stood up to me is I said, when I'm older, I want to run a big computer software company and make lots of money, right? So that was like, funny, obviously. And the other thing which I noticed, and I noticed it a lot because a lot of my friends from back then replied to, to me highlighting it, saying, I think when I'M When I'm older or when I'm gone, I want to be remembered as a very kind person who would always help his friends. Right. I'd still say that's very true, but I'd kind of. I'd want to expand it to be helping more than just my friends and hopefully helping. Helping mankind. Right. And. And, you know, that word kind is interesting and that the discussion we just had around Steve Jobs is an interesting example. Like, my definition of kind is often very different from other people's. My definition of kind is helping people learn, helping people progress, helping people do better. And sometimes that involves saying a brutally honest truth. Right. And pointing out the inconvenient things and pointing out the hard path that we have to take and the struggle that we have to do do in order to progress. Right. And that's my definition of kind. And look, I hope that I'll be remembered as someone who is kind and helped in some ways progress humanity in various different ways. 


    Anastasia: [01:33:24 - 01:33:27]

    Oh, that's so beautiful. I'm sure you will. 


    Alex: [01:33:27 - 01:33:29]

    Thank you. Thanks. 


    Anastasia: [01:33:29 - 01:33:30]

    Thank you so much. 


    Alex: [01:33:30 - 01:33:31]

    Thanks. 


    Anastasia: [01:33:31 - 01:33:32]

    I really enjoyed it. 


    Alex: [01:33:32 - 01:33:33]

    Awesome. Yeah, so did I. Thank you very much.



 
Anastasia Koroleva
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