Timo Armoo: [00:00:00 - 00:00:06] I dearly, hope I'm not the guy who, ten years into the future, is talking about something that he did in 2022. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:06 - 00:00:35] Timo Armoo, a post exit prodigy. He sold his first business at the age of 17, then aced an eight figure exit at 27. He's a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree, Huffington Post entrepreneur of the year, and one of the Times's most influential media figures. Beyond TV and book deals, he is magnetic speaker and the incredible friend who pushed me to launch this podcast. Timo's here to inspire us with his no nonsense wisdom on post exit success in life and business. 

Timo Armoo: [00:00:35 - 00:00:51] I don't believe in legacy. Having a personal brand is such a massive cheat code. In this new era of business, everybody has a zone of genius. You're 21, 24. You haven't lived anything.  You also have never run a business before. So what the hell are you doing here? 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:51 - 00:00:51] Go to work.  See more

Timo Armoo: [00:00:51 - 00:00:59] Go and do action. Interesting. Rather than, yeah, I want to be a VC because it's cool on LinkedIn, it's cool on Twitter. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:07 - 00:01:09] Thank you so much for joining me today. 
Timo Armoo: [00:01:09 - 00:01:11] We're good. It's going to be fun. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:11 - 00:01:13] Tell me, how old are you? 
Timo Armoo: [00:01:13 - 00:01:15] I just turned 29. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:15 - 00:01:22] So why on earth am I interviewing you on my podcast? You shouldn't qualify. 
Timo Armoo: [00:01:22 - 00:02:01] I got into a business at 21 called Fanbyte, which was an influencer, marketing business, and right place, right time, lot of hard work, bit of luck. We ended up selling it last year at 27. And so a six year journey of growing, scaling, and then selling a company in a pretty formative stage of my life. We took the company from just myself in my second year of university to a team of 80 people working brands such as Nike, McDonald's, delivery, multi eight figures in revenue. And our acquisition was similar as well. 
Timo Armoo: [00:02:01 - 00:02:07] And so it's been a fast ride. And so I guess that's what qualifies me to be in this room with you. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:07 - 00:02:12] That was a very fast answer. I do plan to dig much deeper into this. 

Timo Armoo: [00:02:12 - 00:02:13] Right, let's roll. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:13 - 00:02:16] So why? Why did you start fanbites? 
Timo Armoo: [00:02:16 - 00:03:59] I did start it in a very selfish way. I had grown up in south London. I had grown up in a place called Oaken Road, which I guess we have a big US audience here. So it's kind of like, I don't know, Compton. Compton in New York. And so actually what I figured out was I want to get out of this situation. And I theorized that business was going to be the way that I would get out of this situation. And so I had been tinkering around with a bunch of businesses before I had a very small, barely significant exit with a company I started at 17. And I thought, oh, turns out that if I make something that people want and people pay me for it, and I keep doing it over a long enough period of time, I can build something that someone will pay me a lot of money for it. And so fanbytes was started because I saw the influencer opportunity. It started in 2017 when people were looking at these YouTubers and Instagrammers and these people in their bedrooms creating content and thinking how weird it was. But I was like, oh, no, there's an opportunity here because that's where all the eyeballs of the young people are going. So why don't we build a company that basically can help brands to reach this audience? And this, to me, was one of those market inflection points where I thought, okay, this is it. This is the opportunity that I think would be the thing that can get me out of the ends, get me out of the hood, basically. And so I started it solely for very selfish, capitalist reasons. That's it. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:03:59 - 00:04:00] It's so beautifully honest. 
Timo Armoo: [00:04:01 - 00:04:26] Yeah. I think most founders that I speak to, there is an element of selfishness in starting a business. I think also because I started it quite young, it's not as if I had ever experienced, say, working for someone and felt the need saying that I don't ever want to have a boss or anything. It was like, solely, I figured out that this is the shortest path to changing my life, therefore I'm going to do it. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:04:26 - 00:04:28] So it was money and financial freedom. 
Timo Armoo: [00:04:28 - 00:05:05] That comes with it was. So it started off really being about money and financial freedom. And then what's so interesting is, as I was running the business, I think in our third year, because the journey of it was quite short, like six years. In our third year, I started to realize that my motivation was still about achievement and exits, et cetera. But as we started to get more competitors, my motivation actually changed to become a lot more about how do we become the best in our category. And so it then moved more to a sense of competition rather than just selfishly how do I make the most. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:05:05 - 00:05:06] And how many people do you have? 

Timo Armoo: [00:05:06 - 00:05:33] So we had 80 people by the time that we saw the company. I think around the time we moved towards being more of competition, we had about 30 people. And it was just, I think a big part of it was my youthful ego, where I was like, come on, we're better than these guys. We cannot let them win. And so that transition is something that I find a lot of founder friends also go through. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:05:34 - 00:05:36] So did money make you happy? 

Timo Armoo: [00:05:36 - 00:06:13] I would say money did make me happier. The reason why is, growing up, most of my unhappiness came from not having money problems. And so by having more money, it did solve those money problems, which therefore made me happier. Now I wish I'd done more of that introspective work to be able to know what actually really drives me, because after selling the company, I genuinely was like, oh, my God, I never have to work again. So, yeah, I've made it. 

Timo Armoo: [00:06:13 - 00:06:43] And then that lasted for about three months. And I thought, okay, so what really drives me? And I realized that it wasn't actually really the money, it was building something of significance. And if you had put me in a different vehicle where I was driven by significance, where the end goal was that I would have built something which has some kind of impact, I think that I would have been equally happy, maybe with a bit less money, to be honest. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:06:43 - 00:06:46] So significance for you is impact? 

Timo Armoo: [00:06:46 - 00:07:34] Yes. And I don't mean impact in the altruistic sense of impact. I mean impact in the sense of doing something. And people saying it was Timo who did that. That, for me, I think, was a far bigger driver than the money, because if it was the money, I would have joined a bunch of my friends who then went to work at hedge funds, who then went to work at Goldman because I did a computer science degree. And every day, every week, there were these banks who were trying to recruit people from my university. And I think I would have gone that path if it was solely about money. But I think I realized it was a lot more about significance and impact and being able to say he did something that was worth talking about.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:07:34 - 00:07:44] So it's more validation and proving yourself than just money, or probably both. But you only realized it later, so you had it. You realize it later. 

Timo Armoo: [00:07:44 - 00:07:44] Yeah. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:07:44 - 00:07:45] Interesting. 
Timo Armoo: [00:07:45 - 00:07:58] It's so funny, because when I was younger, I would hear people say things like, money doesn't make you happy, et cetera. And I always said, okay, that may be cool, but I would like to go and figure it out myself. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:07:58 - 00:07:59] And you did.
Timo Armoo: [00:08:00 - 00:08:31] And I did. And I think it is. Money did make me happier because it solved my money problems. And most of my unhappiness at that point came from not having money. And I think that's the way that I frame my relationship with money. If I had then at the beginning thought, actually, significance is what drives me, I think I would have been less stressed whilst running the business. I think I was a very uptight manager and a very uptight leader. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:31 - 00:08:31] Really? 
Timo Armoo: [00:08:31 - 00:08:34] Yeah, 100%. I was very uptight. 
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:34 - 00:08:37] You're so not uptight with friends, so it's hard to imagine. 
Timo Armoo: [00:08:37 - 00:08:47] Yeah. Well, now it's because I have that self awareness to know that I was uptight. I would not have worked for me if I was an employee. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:48 - 00:08:52] Would you work for you now that you understand yourself better?  Timo Armoo: [00:08:52 - 00:09:38] I think yes. But also I generally now operate in the world with, I think, less pressure. So the reason why I think I was a very bad leader for a large part of fanbites and then I got good, probably in the last two years, was because I was very me focused, and I saw my team, and I've never actually said this before, but I saw my team and I saw my company as solely a means to an end, which was before I'm 30, I want to have enough money that I'm set. And the team is just. And the idea is just a vehicle to get there. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:09:38 - 00:09:38] Yeah.  Timo Armoo: [00:09:39 - 00:09:51] And I wish that actually what I had done before was gone. Actually, I am driven by building something of significance, and the people and the team are part of that significance. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:09:51 - 00:10:00] Would you then still sell the business? Because it sounds like you created this artificial deadline for yourself by 30. I need to prove myself. I need to sell.  Timo Armoo: [00:10:00 - 00:10:01] Yeah. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:01 - 00:10:05] If you knew what you know now about your actual motivation, would you have sold?  Timo Armoo: [00:10:05 - 00:10:07] I think I would still have sold. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:07 - 00:10:07] Okay.  Timo Armoo: [00:10:08 - 00:11:15] I think the reason I would still have sold is because actually, by selling the company, inadvertently I tick the box of significance because think about it, right? I was a black kid who grew up in south London, who went to a state school and who grew up in a fourth floor council estate in one of the poorest places in the city. And then I started a business in my second year of university, and then I sold that company. That's significant. Right.  And I think, like that final bit of. And then he sold it and then he did well from it. I think that adds to the significance. Whereas I think if it was and then he started the company and it just kept going and going and going. For me, I think the narrative is less significant because I think anyone can start a company. Not many can sell it for tens of millions of pounds. And so for me, it did add that element of significance. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:11:15 - 00:11:18] There's evidence of your achievement. There is your success. 

Timo Armoo: [00:11:18 - 00:11:56] Exactly. There is evidence of it. There is proof that I was able to do something now during the business, when I say that if I knew about significance, I would have been driven, I would have enjoyed it a bit more is that I saw the only significant thing of the business was selling it. So to me, it was like if Fanbite had not been acquired, the business might as well not have existed.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:11:56 - 00:11:56] Wow. 

Timo Armoo: [00:11:57 - 00:11:57] Right?  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:11:57 - 00:11:58] Yeah. 

Timo Armoo: [00:11:58 - 00:12:30] Because that was the means to an end. And that was because my sole thing was, there's one thing that is significant is like selling the company, being known as the person who sold the company and then having the money to prove it. But if I feel, well, actually, significance is about impacting an industry, significance is about the people that you hire. It's about the lives that you're able to change whilst running the company. It's about the stories that you're able to tell whilst you're doing the company. It's not just at the end. I would have enjoyed it a lot.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:12:30 - 00:12:41] So you don't regret selling? You would still have sold. You would have done it differently. So do you plan to have another business where you can do all these things? 

Timo Armoo: [00:12:41 - 00:13:17] Yes, 100%. When I speak to a lot of founders, what I tend to see, especially post exit founders, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is the first business is almost a blueprint on things not to do, and then the second or third business is their way of going. All right, here are the 101 things I should not have done. I am now going to make sure that I don't do them for the second company or the third company. And so for me, that's the framework that I'm using for my next thing. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:13:17 - 00:14:04] Well, my observation is that it works really well if the person processes the experience of the first business well enough, takes time, heals, goes through introspection, knows themselves better, have some sense of purpose, which may change over time, but at least they're motivated by something that has very clear definition, then it works. What I see a lot is some people just rush into the next business right away, and oftentimes then they give up because actually they don't have enough drives because they don't have that purpose. And money is no longer a purpose and proving yourself is no longer a purpose. So they just give up because it's still hard even the second time around. Yeah, I made that mistake. So it's close to the heart. And then I closed that company. I just wasn't driven. 

Timo Armoo: [00:14:05 - 00:14:09] Yeah, that's interesting. How long into the company did you close it?  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:14:09 - 00:14:30] About a year, year and a half. And quite a significant financial investment because second time around I also thought, oh, now I can afford to not work as hard to hire better people than I did before. All that makes a lot of sense. What I completely underestimated is how I myself would feel. So I had the best team in the world and I still closed the business. 

Timo Armoo: [00:14:30 - 00:14:31] Interesting.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:14:31 - 00:14:32] Very important. 

Timo Armoo: [00:14:32 - 00:14:35] Because you just didn't have the drive to do it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:14:35 - 00:14:47] Yeah, because I didn't take that time. And after I closed it, I went through the full process and I waited until I felt that I knew what I wanted. Not what I was doing, but what I wanted. 

Timo Armoo: [00:14:47 - 00:15:14] It's so interesting because one of my co-founders has just gone on to start a new business pretty much right after we sold, went on to start a new business, and I haven't started a new business, and it's been about, what, 18 months now. And sometimes he and I talk about his business and I'm like, oh, that's cool. That's quite cool. And sometimes I'm like, why haven't I started something else?  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:15:14 - 00:15:14] Yeah. 

Timo Armoo: [00:15:14 - 00:16:22] But I also know that I'm just not in the right frame of mind. And as you said, I haven't quite figured out the reason I would do it. It's just more like, well, I'm 29. How else do I spend my time? The thing I really enjoy is business. I love talking about business. I love creating content about business. I love reading about business. So if that is what I enjoy, then I should be doing a business then. As you mentioned, even though our journey was six years, business is hard, right? It is difficult. And I think having been through that experience, I'm like, okay, well, it's going to be hard. Are you prepared to not, after six months be like, why the heck am I doing this? I don't need to do this. So I'm not going to go to Costa Rica.  Right. So I think that because I'm not in that mindframe just yet, I'm not ready to. And it encourages me to hear that you have a similar thing and you shut yours down after a year? Because I think that can definitely be a pain point for a lot of exited entrepreneurs. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:16:22 - 00:16:57] Yeah. And closing that business was very hard. My ego and I cried. Really clicked. Months.  Yeah, because the business was also at a good stage when there was a product market fit, good team. But sometimes you just have to be honest with yourself. And I really wasn't driven to push it forward. And I did the right thing. I did the right thing. I wish I started it a bit later. I wish I gave myself a bit more time. So I personally think you're doing the right thing. Yeah, but how do you spend your time now? 

Timo Armoo: [00:16:57 - 00:18:14] I spend my time in three ways. So one of the things, at the beginning of the year, I said, oh, I have a unique set of opportunities and a unique set of skills and a unique set of experiences which can basically help other people with their journey of building companies that can be sold. And so I started creating content on social, and it seemed as if people really like it now. So we've built an audience of hundreds of thousands of people across social entrepreneurs who basically they engage with my content, watch my content, share my content, and that's pretty impactful. I think the second thing is also helping other friends sell their companies.  When we sold the company, that whole experience of signing the documents on docusign and doing stuff over Zoom and then thinking like, is this going to work? Is this not going to work? The letters of intent, the data room, I was like, this is so exciting. And I had a number of friends who were thinking about how they can package their business to sell at some point, how they sell it, and they had no clue to do that. So, actually, one thing that has been very useful for me is helping them. 

Timo Armoo: [00:18:14 - 00:19:18] Yes, taking a percentage, because it's normal charity here, but taking percentage and helping themselves, that's been very exciting. And then the third is actually trying to find more of myself. My other co founder, he and I had a joke which was like, he is a very wool, wool person, believes a lot in the metaphysical and the self and all of that. And I'd always be like, dude, just work. Forget all this mumbo jumbo. And now I'm spending time thinking about a mumbo jumbo. And I am realizing that actually, I need to understand more of myself, what drives me, what motivates me. So I'm always giving myself a personal MBA, where I'm studying myself, what drives me, what moves me, who are the type of people that I like to spend my time around, et cetera, et cetera. And so those three things are very interesting. It's kind of understanding self, helping other people achieve a similar outcome, and then creating content. 

Timo Armoo: [00:19:18 - 00:19:24] I think the amalgamation of all those does bring me a lot of satisfaction.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:19:24 - 00:19:28] It must keep you quite busy. Maybe you won't want to do another thing. 

Timo Armoo: [00:19:28 - 00:19:36] I've never shared this before, and I'm going to share it on here. I think I'm going to build another thing just to prove to myself that I can do it again.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:19:36 - 00:19:36] Okay. 

Timo Armoo: [00:19:36 - 00:20:06] I think so. I think when Fanbyte was acquired, I thought to myself, I dearly hope I'm not the guy who, ten years into the future, is talking about something that he did in 2022, because it is very easy to do that. And I think for so many founders who go through that, I think five or 10% of their mind is that nagging feeling in the back which says, oh, maybe I got lucky.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:20:06 - 00:20:06] Yeah. 

Timo Armoo: [00:20:06 - 00:20:45] Because we sold in May, and then in, like, two weeks afterwards, markets started to tumble. And I remember a few times thinking, oh, if we left that for another two weeks, that could have been right. Or, for example, in our process, we ended up having three people put in letters of intent. So it's a very competitive deal, very competitive process. And sometimes I think, okay, was that really a consequence of how good I was or how good the product was, or was it really a consequence of how hot the market was? 

Timo Armoo: [00:20:46 - 00:21:06] And if it's a consequence of how hot the market was, then actually, could any idiots basically have done this? And I talked to my friends about this, my close friends about this, and as friends, you just say, no, actually, you did this, you did that. But I think that is still a nagging feeling in my head. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:21:06 - 00:21:11] Sounds like an imposter syndrome. It's very popular in our community.  Timo Armoo: [00:21:11 - 00:22:13] No. So it's not imposter syndrome, because I don't think I have impostor syndrome. What I think is almost one question I always ask myself, whether it's in fitness or in business or in anything like that. It's like, how good could you really be if you kind of put it all on the line for anything? Like, how good could you really be? And I think that's a question I ask myself for business, because it is relatively rare for someone to start a business at 21, sell it for a ton of money at 27, and then just continue living life like they always did. And I think that almost, I've kind of set the gauntlet for myself to ensure that the next thing I do, just for myself, is to go, okay, maybe there's a process to this, maybe there is a system to this, and I can make it repeatable. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:13 - 00:22:19] I'm yet to meet a post exit founder who wouldn't admit that luck was a big part of it.  Timo Armoo: [00:22:19 - 00:22:19] Yeah. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:19 - 00:22:23] So chances are you do that next business, you exit, it's super successful.  Timo Armoo: [00:22:24 - 00:22:25] And then I say lucky again.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:25 - 00:22:26] Exactly. 

Timo Armoo: [00:22:26 - 00:25:07] What's that phrase? Is once you're lucky, twice you're good, and then three times, then you're just a genius. And so I think that is definitely a big motivator for me. So when I was a kid, one of the things I did was I got a scholarship to a private school, a school called Christ Hospital. For those listening, it's like this 6th form Edward VI made the school. So you wear these gowns into school and you march into lunch every single day. And I remember my first day at that school, I went there for sixfold. And I remember meeting absolute geniuses, people who were so brainy, people who had just finished their A levels and they were 15 people who, it was so obvious they were going to go to Oxbridge. And I remember thinking to myself, I just can't compete. You just have better brain power than me, right?  And also, you care more about academia than me. You are prepared to spend the night figuring out integrations and differentiations and understanding this formula, and I'm just not. And I remember at that point was actually when I started the business at 17, Entrepreneur Express, which was like a business media publication. And I started it almost as an act of rebellion to say, okay, you may win the academia war, but you can't win the business war because all of you guys are not motivated to do the entrepreneurship game. And I think that sense of wanting, again, wanting to be significant in something is a driver for me now.  But whereas with that business at 17 was more, I want to be different, and then with fanbites, it was more, I want to make money and I want to sell something. And for people to know that still no significance drives me, I just don't know in what particular capacity it drives me. And that's something that I find kind of concerning because I'm just like, okay, I know I want to start another business. I know I want to prove to myself that it was not luck. I also don't know why. Okay, so you sell it, and then what have you proved again? Maybe it's just to myself rather than to anyone else. Maybe. I don't know. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:25:07 - 00:25:12] Probably. Okay, so you had three partners at Fanbite.  Timo Armoo: [00:25:12 - 00:25:13] Two partners.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:25:13 - 00:25:21] You were three also. So what was your role? What was that thing you contributed and naturally was drawn? 

Timo Armoo: [00:25:21 - 00:26:22] Yeah. So I was basically the rainmaker. So I was a CEO. And there's actually a really funny thing I told my cOo. So we had a CEO, we had a CTO, and then we had a Coo. And I said something to him. I said to my cOo, I said, fanbites would not have started without me. Fanbites would not have scaled without you. So at the beginning, I was very much a person figuring out how to get customers. What should a product be? How should we tailor it? What should the positioning be? And then when we got to about 30 people or so, we're saying, okay, how do we build systems and stuff like that? Ambrose, my co founder, was like, okay, how do we implement these systems? I call him Mr. Spreadsheet because he loves, in fact, fun fact, at one point he had a spreadsheet to decode the exact traits of the perfect girlfriend. So he went on several dates, decoded. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:26:22 - 00:26:23] I love it.  Timo Armoo: [00:26:23 - 00:26:32] And he was like, okay, it makes sense now that I like this type of woman at this height. She has this interest, et cetera. I was like, right, okay, it makes sense for you. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:26:32 - 00:26:33] Did it work out for him?  Timo Armoo: [00:26:33 - 00:27:14] It worked out for him. It worked out for him. So my role was very much like sales, marketing, vision, fundraising, doing all of that stuff. Coo was very much in fact, a very fun story.  One time, very early on, I went to this conference and I did a talk, and I was talking about the product, showing different things, showing case studies, telling the story. And then at the end, we had queues of people wanting to talk to us. And then I said to Ambrose, okay, so can you sort this out? Right? And I think that's a very good idea of how our relationship worked. 

Timo Armoo: [00:27:14 - 00:27:24] And then Mitchell, the CTO, was very much focused on building out the platform, building out the product, building out the data tool. And so that was the way that we split our priorities.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:27:24 - 00:27:31] So you focused on people and vision and sort of the creative bit. 

Timo Armoo: [00:27:31 - 00:27:45] Yeah. So I'd say I focused on the commercial and vision and fundraising, whereas Ambrose, I say focused on the people and the operations. And then Mitchell focused on the technical and the data and everything that comes with it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:27:45 - 00:27:50] So if you do another business, you are confident that that's what you want to focus on. 

Timo Armoo: [00:27:50 - 00:28:59] Again, that's a great question. So one of the things I've been thinking about is my zone of genius. And I think everybody has a zone of genius. There are things like Ambrose love in a spreadsheet. And I remember times he'd sit me down and say, let's discuss oKRs.  I'm like, it turns out I need to go out. I do not want to be here. And I think everybody has the zone of genius. And so that would be my zone of genius. Sales, marketing, commercial, fundraising, that would definitely be where I'd focus on having said that, and I'm completely open to hearing what you think is I do really think that parts of finance, Ops, HR are things that make you like an all round entrepreneur. And especially because I'm relatively young, I'm like, well, I have so much time to learn these skills, so why don't I do that for my next thing? Or why don't I start a small project where actually I'm able to get involved in the finance and the HR part of thing rather than just honing in on my strengths and honing in on my zone of genius? What do you think? 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:28:59 - 00:29:12] No, I think you should stick to your zone of genius and have fun, especially in your situation right now. Why do anything that's not fun? Just some idea that you need additional skills.  Timo Armoo: [00:29:12 - 00:29:16] That's true. Very fair. What would you say your zone of genius is? 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:16 - 00:29:17] Similar?  Timo Armoo: [00:29:17 - 00:29:18] Okay.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:18 - 00:29:42] Yeah. I think I'm also best at sort of organizing the process and make things happen as opposed to being an expert in something in particular. And I had lots of insecurities about it for a while, and then at some point I accepted it because I actually had impostor syndrome, thinking, oh, if I'm not an expert in anything that I can label, maybe I'm not good enough. And then I thought, oh, there is a label for it. Actually, I make it happen. 

Timo Armoo: [00:29:43 - 00:29:44] I'm the make it happen person.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:44 - 00:29:45] Exactly.  Timo Armoo: [00:29:45 - 00:29:55] That's interesting. Do you find that to be the case with a lot of the founders that you speak to, that they're more like commercial people rather than.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:55 - 00:30:11] I think so those who end up exiting businesses to be the type, because most of these people don't start the business because they love a particular activity. It's not a lifestyle business. 

Timo Armoo: [00:30:11 - 00:30:12] Yeah, it's interesting.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:13 - 00:30:24] So an interior designer may have a business because they love that particular type of activity, but people who make it happen usually also want to have an exit. Yeah, they think differently.  Timo Armoo: [00:30:24 - 00:30:26] I'm with you. Okay, that makes sense. 

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:26 - 00:30:40] So I absolutely love it how you thought through everything already. It's beautiful. So tell me how your exit changed your relationships with other people and how you choose people to surround yourself.  Timo Armoo: [00:30:41 - 00:31:35] So I think that when we sold, I had these four stages of post exit emotion. The first one was actually more of a, oh, my God, I can't believe this has happened. So I remember the next day after the sale, I went to Sainsbury's or, like, tesco, and I just kept thinking, jesus Christ, like, what the heck? This is so amazing. I cannot believe this is me. And then the next period is actually the period where you go, oh, my God, my whole life has changed, but everything else around me and everyone else is just going about their life as normal. So I do remember probably about two weeks afterwards, I was in supermarket, and I was like, guys, come on, come on, start singing for me. Guys, start singing. Right?  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:31:35 - 00:31:36] And no, one cares.  Timo Armoo: [00:31:36 - 00:34:13] No one cares. No one knows. Right? Because our exit was quite publicized, right? It was in a bunch of newspapers, et cetera. So what I do remember is actually on the day that we sold, when I went, I was walking back from the office, and I was playing Frank Sinatra my way, and I was just, like, dancing on the street, and I was crying as well. And the reason I was crying was because I had some family issues that we'll talk about where I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened. So the first stage is, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened. The second stage is, guys, this has happened. Why hasn't everything kind of changed? But actually, the world has stayed the same? The third thing that then happens is when you realize, and this is purely monetarily, when you realize that things that you thought were expensive were not expensive anymore, so you adjust to your new normal. So, for example, it took me a very long time to actually spend any money after the exit. It took me a very long time. And at some point, I kind of broke through that, and I thought, dude, enjoy yourself a bit, right? So we ended up going to Bali. We did, like, first class flights to Bali, the best hotels and all of that stuff, just to get used to the idea of, okay, you've enjoyed yourself and you've lived this life. And then the fourth stage is saying, okay, now that this is my quote, unquote, new life, how do I now live it going into the future? So you go from, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened to me, to guys, this happened to me. Why hasn't everybody singing for me to, how do I adjust to the money that I have now? And emotionally, how do I do that? And then the fourth thing is, okay, now I've adjusted. What now are you going to do next? How now are you going to shape your future? So those were the emotions that I went through and all through the different parts of that, I think the people I was with, I wouldn't say anyone, treated me differently. I'd say that it makes some family things a bit odd, right? Because I never shared the number. You can kind of deduce, I think, the time to not go on it or something like that. But some family members thought I had 100 million, and it's like, no, right? And so because of that, there's all that dynamics. But the main thing is those four waves were definitely something that I felt.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:34:13 - 00:34:18] Did you get requests for money from family members or close friends?  Timo Armoo: [00:34:18 - 00:35:04] Yes, I did. But also, I think I was very aware that will happen. In fact, before we sold, I spoke to a few friends who had also sold their companies, and they told me that there are a number of things that would happen that you just have to be very comfortable with. Number one, never loan money out to a family or friend. Just give them the money. Number two, families would always think that you have way more money than you actually do, and you just have to keep quiet about it. And then, number three, make sure that you buy yourself a really interesting gift to commemorate. Those were the three things that he said, and it took me a while to internalize those, but I did all three.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:04 - 00:35:06] So it never caused you any significant issues?  Timo Armoo: [00:35:06 - 00:35:31] No. But I also think that what helped was, like, people know me as a very relatively serious person, someone who's a very grounded person. And so because of that, even if a family member was to come out, I just say, actually no or yes. But here is exactly what I'm going to give you, and that's it. It kind of helps that I don't have a big family.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:31 - 00:35:31] Lucky you. Timo Armoo: [00:35:32 - 00:35:33] Yeah. Do you have a big family?  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:34 - 00:35:38] Yeah. But I got more requests from friends than family.  Timo Armoo: [00:35:38 - 00:36:26] Yeah. Friends was not so much. Friends was actually not so much. I think it's because, actually, so many of my friends that I have were also friends that I had at the beginning. And so they saw me grind. Like, they saw me struggle. They saw me put in efforts. And I think that they actually come to me more for business advice and business expertise rather than money, because I also think that a part of it is, like, they know that I got them right. They know if there was any financial hardship, they can come to me. And because of that, it's almost like I would only come to Tim if it's actually something serious, not, oh, no, there is a mouse in my house, and I need, like, get an exterminator. Can you pay for it? Right. But if it's, like, something very serious, they know that. Yeah.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:36:26 - 00:36:28] Did you lose any friends after you exit?  Timo Armoo: [00:36:28 - 00:37:29] That's a great question that I had never thought about. Did I lose any friends? I don't think I lost any friends. I think that my friends gained a much deeper appreciation of our friendship. So by that, I mean, a lot of my friends I was with were the same friends that I had at the beginning. And so for so many of them, they were there when I was like, sorry, guys, I can't come out tonight because I am working. They were there when I was creating presentations. They were there when I was trying to code the first version of our shitty website. They were there when they saw all of these things. And so there's more of an appreciation of the fact that wow. And I think it's more inspiring to be like, wow, okay, if Timo can do this, then I can also, whether it's a business, whether it is being exceptional at their job, whether it's being an athlete, I can push myself as well and see what I can do.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:37:29 - 00:37:33] Makes a lot of sense. So today, what money means to you?  Timo Armoo: [00:37:34 - 00:38:22] So I think money means ownership of time and optionality. By ownership of time, I mean there are so many small things, small niggles during the day and during the week that having the money is able to take care of. And I never truly appreciated that until I had money. And in terms of optionality, it is the fact that I can choose to do things out of a position of an abundance and not scarcity. I think beforehand I used to think about things very much from a scarcity mindset. To be honest, that was some work I had to do. Even after we sold, I was very much still thinking about things from a scarcity.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:38:22 - 00:38:27] Which makes a lot of sense given your childhood story.  Timo Armoo: [00:38:27 - 00:38:28] Yeah.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:38:29 - 00:38:32] Where would you possibly have got abundance mindset from?  Timo Armoo: [00:38:32 - 00:39:21] Absolutely nowhere. You had to practice it. Right. The way I see abundance and thinking in a certain way is it's like any muscle, right? If you are working out in the gym, you don't just do one day of leg extensions and suddenly your legs are amazing. You keep doing it, you keep training the muscle, and then eventually over time, you then have strong legs. And I think this is the case with also mindset and abundance, that you have to start very small and just repeatedly hone your abundance muscle to think, okay, this is fine. This is the way that we think about money. This is the way that we think about options.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:21 - 00:39:25] So for you, your abundance mindset is about optionality.  Timo Armoo: [00:39:26 - 00:39:26] Yes.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:26 - 00:39:28] That's how you define your abundance mindset.  Timo Armoo: [00:39:29 - 00:40:27] Yeah, it is about optionality. It is about not settling for the default option. And I think that actually applies to a lot of things, like including where you live, for example. Right? Like in January, I'm going to South Africa for a month. And that's just because my friend was like, hey, let's go to South Africa. It's like, okay, yeah, let's go. And I think that optionality to say, yes, we could spend January in London or we could spend in South Africa, right? But all the way to the smallest thing, like, okay, I need a new pair of trainers. I could get these nikes, or I could get these hoomers, or I could just get both of them because I like both of them.  Timo Armoo: [00:40:27 - 00:41:45] Or a good one is about hanging out with friends, right? It is. Well, I could force myself to enjoy time with these people. I know they're not my people. I know they're not my vibe.  I know they're not on my wave. I know they're just really looking at completely different things. I choose to not spend my time with them. There have been so many times where. There have been so many times where I have been in a circle of people and I just say, okay, guys, I think I'm going to leave now. And then I just leave. And they ask me why. I say, well, because I can't, because I'm not quite enjoying this conversation. And then I leave. Now, the thing about that is that doesn't have necessarily to do with the fact that you have money to help you do that, but it's more like if you are thinking abundantly in all these different parts of your life, then actually in your relationships, that should be a very important thing for you to also think abundantly. Like, do I want to be with this circle of friends? Do I want to be with this person? Okay. No. Therefore, go next.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:41:45 - 00:41:57] So you kept all your old friends, which is brilliant and actually not that common in my experience. But did you intentionally think about adding different types of people into your circle?  Timo Armoo: [00:41:57 - 00:44:20] Oh, great question. Yes, I think that there are a set of new friends and genuine friends that I have made since last year that I didn't have before. Now. One of the things that helps is obviously if you are an exited founder, it is easier to then network with other exited founders. Right. Generally, I do think I was conscious that I wanted to add more people who had as deep an interest in business and personal development as I did. And I think that my friendship group, amazing friendship group, but they weren't as into business as I was. I could be really tired at 02:30 a.m. And if someone came to me and said, okay, so there's this business idea, I'm. All right, we're up, let's go. And I wanted to surround myself with that a lot more, actually. Here's a really funny thing. About six months after we sold. So around October. Yeah, I guess October. Yes. On the eigth of October, that was my birthday, I sat down and I said, like, what type of life do I want and what do I choose to work on? But also specifically, who do I want to be around? And I wrote that the people that I want to be around are people that inspire me, people that I inspire, and also people that I genuinely, really love the conversation that we have because I realized that often there were some conversations I'd be in. And if you asked me 24 hours after, what did you talk about? It's like I actually have no freaking clue. Right. But with this, deciding the type of conversations that you want to have, it led me to then opening friendships, opening relationships with people that I thought, oh, yeah, this is what I really enjoy. And it's not because that person is rich or that person is wealthy. It is because their interests are the same as mine now. I love geeking out about business, but I also love geeking out about investment and portfolio strategy. I love that. Right? And I love talking about fitness and going to the gym and doing all of these things. And so I consciously decided the type of people who would also be interested in that.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:44:20 - 00:44:24] So you brought us to the question of how you manage your money and portfolio.  Timo Armoo: [00:44:24 - 00:49:10] Yeah. So what's so interesting, and I'm sure you went through this even more, was, if there is anything public about someone who has made a bit of money, the wealth managers and the banks just descend like vultures. And I think probably two, three months afterwards, I kind of got the same thing as well. And if I'm being honest, I kind of enjoyed them pitching to know I loved Rothschild and Goldman and JP and Koots and boss lords and all these people just like sitting there, yes, you can do this. You can do that. Yeah, tell me. Tell me what I can do. If only I pay you fees, right? But I knew I was never, ever going to go with any wealth manager just because I think I wanted to train myself and understand how to manage money, because I think that you work really hard for your money and then you just give it to someone who just dumps it into an index or something like that, and it's like, oh, well, there you go. Here are my fees. So how do I manage my money? I think I do something quite similar to a lot of people actually beforehand. A very fun story is that I struggled coming to terms with having money. Really struggled, insanely struggled. Because also, as you know, it's like when somebody pays you for your business, they don't give you cash, right? It's all digital. And so I remember so many times I would like, wake up and I just check my bank accounts and be like, okay, it's there, it's there. Okay, it is real because I was freaking out. I never came from money, and I never knew really anyone who had money. And so I was freaking out. I remember having this constant dream that someone was after me, like the police were after me, like, constant dream. And I said it to a friend of mine and she said, oh, you know the reason why, right? And it's like, well, because you don't feel like you deserve the money. I said, well, it's not that I don't feel like I deserve the money. It's more like I'm just scared I'll spend it all on bullshit, right? So that was definitely a thing for me where I had to come to terms with it before I could think about how to manage it. I speak to so many entrepreneurs or people who made their money from actually putting in the work rather than crypto people and dogecoin people, and they were like, oh, my God, it took me so long to make this, and I'm freakishly scared of spending it. So I had that for quite a while. Managing my money now is pretty much, I see it as a fun game. So on one end, you have your very risky things or relatively risky things. I invest in also a lot of agriculture stuff. So one of the things I believe is everybody eats. And so if you can get as close to the source as possible and invest in the source, then you're good. So, for example, one of my big buckets is an agriculture business which exports avocados, sweet potatoes, soybeans to the supermarkets here. And the returns are not a great, and I genuinely love that sort of business better than the other stuff I do, which is like index funds and stocks and even property, because to me, I'm like, oh, I found an edge here. Not everyone is out here investing in import export businesses and getting great returns, like 30% returns, or finding different arbitrages where someone needs some cash flow to buy this thing, and the returns are 20-25%. And yes, it's a bit risky, but I still get that feeling of I figured out something that other people haven't. So I think that's generally the way that I manage my money. And then, of course, you've got your cash and all that stuff that stays in to make sure that you're covered. But I generally have an appetite towards finding what I'd call the exotic investments, I think, because it gives me a thrill to know that I found an edge somewhere which other people haven't.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:10 - 00:49:11] What about angel investing?  Timo Armoo: [00:49:12 - 00:51:00] So I count angel investing as gambling. And to be honest, I have a very emotional tie to angel investing. When I started off, I was really just, oh, yeah, 25, 55, 50, just all of that. And I realized I was doing it for the wrong reasons. I realized that the reason I started doing the angel investing was because I could very clearly see the opportunity for a certain business if I was the founder and I'd invest in, like, an EcOM brand, and I'd be like, oh, well, it's very obvious that things to do for us to get this to a couple of million in EBIT and then sell it.  But then after a while, I kept thinking, why is this person not doing this? It's so obvious. Just do it right. Or we tell them, hey, do this. And then we meet in three, four, five months.  Have you done it? No. There's this other issue going on. And then I realized that, for me, the reason for angel investing when I was doing it at the beginning was I basically kind of wanted to replicate another success, and I saw it as my way of doing so. And then when you internalize that you are not the founder of that business and you are kind of gambling it and hoping for the best, I then stopped. So I currently have now 17 angel investments. 90% of them were made within six months of the acquisition, because I was like, oh, yeah, you get a check. You get a check. Everybody gets a check. I was like the Oprah of angel investor.  And then now I am taking less bets, but more concentrated into companies that I think I can truly help to exit. So that's been the journey that I've had through angel investing.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:51:00 - 00:51:11] Do you think part of it was to do with your identity, that you wanted to be an angel investor, which sounds cool when you couldn't say you were a founder and CEO?  Timo Armoo: [00:51:11 - 00:51:55] That's a very good question. A really, really good question. I have a couple of thoughts on this. I have always said that I think that people want to be angel investors and to be venture capitalists, primarily for ego. I've always believed this. Sometimes I'd meet 21 year old, 24 year olds. What do you want to do? I want to be a VC. Why? Because they help companies and all that. Maybe 1% of them do. Most of them. It's like, I want to be a VC. So in my mind, I can say I am the one who funds your entrepreneur dreams. It's like you're 21, 24.  You haven't lived anything. You also have never run a business before. So what the hell are you doing here?  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:51:55 - 00:51:56] Go to work.  Timo Armoo: [00:51:56 - 00:53:14] Yeah, go to work. Go and do interesting shit, and then have the credibility to then help other people rather than, yeah, I want to be a VC because it's cool on LinkedIn, it's cool on Twitter. So I do think a part of it was that kind of, it's cool to say I'm the angel investor. Basically. To me, an angel investor was like, I now have enough money that I can give a bunch away and gamble it away. Right. It is probably as close to someone basically being the chair of a nonprofit. Right. It's like, we have enough money that we use our family funds to help the less fortunate. Right. Angel investing is a capitalistic way of helping the less fortunate. So I do think ego was definitely wrapped in it because I wanted that position of, all right, now he's done well, and now he's helping the others. And then when I realized the reason I was doing it was just like a bad reason. It was just purely ego. It was just purely trying to replicate some past success without being the founder. I thought, that's not what really gives me the kick. So probably go do something else, but.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:53:14 - 00:53:15] You are still doing it.  Timo Armoo: [00:53:15 - 00:53:22] So I'm doing it in less companies and I'm taking active, bigger positions.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:53:22 - 00:53:26] So now it's really for financial reasons, because you think it's a good investment.  Timo Armoo: [00:53:26 - 00:54:32] And most importantly, I can see a clear exit, which I can help with. So, for example, the companies now have stakes in in fact, there's a company right now that we are selling, and it wouldn't sell for a ton. It's selling for 19 million. 19 million is a ton, but it's selling for that after I invested in it, probably just about two years ago. And I thought it was just like, oh, yeah, let's kind of see how it goes. But then over time, I thought, oh, actually there's a very clear, obvious exit for this and I can influence it. So then I spoke to the founder. I said, look, let me put in some more money. I also want to have a significant part of it as a non-exec, we're going to get this to an exit. Right. And it is definitely financial reasons, but it's also the idea that I can be involved in something exited again to private equity rather than some kind of strategic. That's a big Difference, actually, in the way I engine. Or I guess now I invest. I invest now trying to understand what the end is going to be in mind and how well can I influence it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:54:33 - 00:54:45] I wonder if that ticks the box for significance and proven yourself once again without you having to actually do a business. I'd love to talk to you after that exit to see how it affected you.  Timo Armoo: [00:54:45 - 00:54:46] Yeah.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:54:46 - 00:54:48] When it's not really Yours.  Timo Armoo: [00:54:48 - 00:55:22] Yours. I would say in that vein, it does tick the box of significance, but more of the fact that I helped another founder achieve their dream. So it's not mass significance, but it's like very specific significance. And in this case, I think it's really interesting because the founder has a family. He's like 42 or something has a family, et cetera. And I think it's cool to be like, oh, dad bought this house because it's how we got here. And I think that legacy. Yeah, exactly. So I think that drives that significance.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:55:22 - 00:55:33] I wasn't even going to go there into the whole legacy and the state planning thing, because you're way too young for that. But are you thinking about it? And how are you thinking about it? No. Okay.  Timo Armoo: [00:55:33 - 00:56:47] No, I don't believe in legacy. I believe that when you die, you die, and then that's it. You're not even going to be there anyway to think about your legacy. I went to Egypt about four months ago, and we went into this massive museum. There were these two massive sculptures there. And on the ground it says, here lies the prince of blah blah blah. And here lies the princess of blah blah. And then looked up and I thought, wow, in their time, these guys were so powerful. So powerful. And now there is a water bottle next to them, and there's a wrapped sweets next to them, and chocolates are next to them, because people are like, okay, they don't remember who you were. They don't remember really what you did. The only thing, really, is, I guess, how you made people feel. Right? And so this is why, for example, I care a lot about creating experiences with my friends, with my family, creating really amazing things, because it matters how they feel, rather than look at all the things that they did.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:56:47 - 00:56:49] How do you think about spirituality?  Timo Armoo: [00:56:49 - 00:58:27] So, I am not religious in any way. I do think I believe in manifestation, actually. Let me try. I got this on the 25 July 2017, I wrote a journal entry to myself, and it says, through my own effort and my mindset, I've come up with an idea that is now worth 3 million pounds, making 38K every single month, where I'm being paid 800 pounds to speak for 20 minutes. I now have a team of six people who were paying good money to work for me. I've made this happen, and I'm living my actual dreams. This is crazy. My dad, I woke up to find him dead. And he told me he was proud of me. And that feeling there of being unable to help with debts. That feeling, there is one I never want to feel again, which is why I want to succeed so badly. So I never feel that feeling of powerlessness. The more money I make, the more power I have, the more I own my life. This is my opportunity to own my life. This is going to be the opportunity to own my life. And I wrote that on the 25 July 2017. And basically what I'd done was I had, like, through this and several entries, I had designed a life that I wanted to happen, and it is the life that I'm currently living now. So I don't believe in spirituality. I'm not religious, but I do believe in this sense of manifestation and basically being able to push yourself and design yourself and push yourself into the future and then live in that future.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:58:27 - 00:58:30] Did you visualize it or you just thought about it?  Timo Armoo: [00:58:30 - 00:59:20] So I thought about it a lot. I visualized a few things. A very interesting story. Whilst I was building the business, once every two weeks, I would go to this restaurant here called Claridis. And I will sit in the foyer of Claridis, and I would just surround myself with people having conversations, people coming in, and I look in there. I'm going to be there someday. I'm going to sit in there someday. I know it's going to happen. And a very, very funny thing. Two days after we sold, I went to Clarida's and I sat in the seats and I ordered, like, afternoon tea. And I just had it. I was like, yes. So definitely there was that visualization. This is going to be it. And then it was it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:59:22 - 00:59:27] Amazing. You got to keep doing it, I guess once you've decided what it is. That's the tricky bit.  Timo Armoo: [00:59:27 - 01:00:06] It is. That is the tricky bit, as you said. In fact, I think in a lunch that we had before, one of the things that you really made me think about was the forcing function for the next thing and the thing that's going to really push me for the next thing. And to be honest, I still don't quite know what it is. Yes, I know it has to do with significance and all of that, but I still don't quite know what it is because I guess for you, after you had your previous exit, then you started another company, which you then stopped after a year, what specific exercises did you do in order for you to go, oh, yeah, okay, now I've understood my triggers.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:00:06 - 01:01:48] Well, at that time I didn't, because I was overwhelmed with my children, and I decided that, okay, this is what I'm going to focus on right now. And I actually see quite a lot of exited founders find their purpose in the family first. It's kind of the easiest, so they focus on the family. I did that as well. And for a while, it really satisfies this search for meaning and feels very meaningful. Because for me, at the end of the day, what's meaningful is when you give yourself, when you serve someone else, it's bigger than you. So that meaning is always that. But we grow out of different stages. So at some point, I still was very focused on my children. I love them, but I started feeling, okay, there is something else I need to do. By that time, I already knew that it had to be something not selfish. And I read enough to understand that spirituality really is our growth, from our ego, from our selfish to selfless. But it takes time. We can't just decide, oh, now I'm this selfless being. I call it spiritual fitness.  It's something that you do in a manner very similar to physical fitness. You learn a few rules, how to do it, how to do it efficiently, and then it's about being disciplined every day and doing it. For some people, it's meditation, gratitude. There are tools that have been known to humanity forever about how to do it, but it's training yourself to be less selfish. And then I think purpose, in a way, reviews itself when you're ready.  Timo Armoo: [01:01:48 - 01:02:16] That's interesting. That's interesting. One of the things I've been reading a lot about is that final point you said about it would review itself when it's ready, it will come, that sort of vibe. I find that really hard to almost say, just be in a moment or work on yourself and the right thing would come to you rather than go and create that right thing.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:02:16 - 01:03:41] Well, but you can give yourself permission to not know to start with. So you relax and you don't worry about it too much. And then you just work on your fitness, right? Because if you think about physical fitness, you don't expect that if you work out for 5 hours, you'll be ready to go to the Olympics. It's exactly the same thing. And I think you can apply it to your thinking about business as well. You mentioned it before, it's really that everyday work. And it's the same in a way with spirituality. But if we haven't grown up religious and like you, I haven't grown up in a religious family, we have to find that formula for ourselves that works. But purpose is a spiritual thing. It is about being ready to serve other people and it happens with age, with experiences, with spiritual practices, with understanding how it all works. You can't push it like you can't push being physically fit in one day, but you can think about it in a way very similar to what you were saying about manifesting your dream. You can know the direction, right? So my direction is there just because I know it's there. And if you're religious, it helps to have faith.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:03:41 - 01:04:09] So you just believe it's there because you have that faith. If you're not religious, it's much harder because you have to do that work to create conviction. And for me, for example, I create conviction. If something is very logical, undeniable, I like going back to first principles and making sure intellectually it's very logical. And then I have conviction. That's what works for me, because I don't have faith just by default.  Timo Armoo: [01:04:09 - 01:04:24] That's interesting. And that's kind of thinking from first. Okay, well, what's a recent belief you've had that you have got rid of because it didn't logically make sense to you?  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:04:24 - 01:05:32] Well, I believe, for example, that at its core, motivation simply comes when we want to get away from suffering and we move towards what we conceive as what we think is pleasure. So, moving from suffering towards pleasure. And if you think about it, we can manipulate it quite a bit so we can focus on how much we hate a particular situation. For example, you know it very well. You hated your poverty, and then you created a dream, and you were both pushed and pulled, pushed by suffering, pulled by that dream. And to me, that's really first principle. This is simply how desires, how motivation works. And then I feel very empowered, because then I focus on creating that dream, focusing on that suffering, and then I'm driven. That's just an example of how I think about first principles instead of, for example, a more popular way of thinking about it. Oh, decide what it is you want as opposed to what other people want from you.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:05:32 - 01:06:43] It's all very confusing for me. I need to have a very clear, simple mental model that makes sense, that's based on first principles, it's logical, and then I believe in this. So, for example, talking about serving other people, to me, it comes from very first principles, because it's natural for us to want to serve others. We are tribal animals, so people are born very selfish. Then once we take care of ourselves, we naturally want to take care of others. That's when we fall in love, we have children, and then we want to give our knowledge to the next generation. So that circle of those we serve naturally grows because what the nature wants us, it wants us to survive and it wants us to help our species to survive. So it's very primal that we want to serve other people. So it's more about being aware of it and cultivating understanding of it and accepting that fact than coming up with some fancy theories that are not based on how nature works.  Timo Armoo: [01:06:43 - 01:07:00] Yeah, no, I think I can empathize and I can agree with a big part of that, especially around motivation framework that you have, which I guess is one question. Yes, for both of us. Is now for you, what motivates you?  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:07:01 - 01:07:06] I am meddling in love with the community of post exit founders.  Timo Armoo: [01:07:07 - 01:07:07] Got it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:07:07 - 01:07:28] I want to serve them. So I've identified that tribe that I want to serve and I think I do have knowledge that would help them. And this is why I ended up doing this podcast, which is really your fault, by the way. Let's be honest, if not for you, I wouldn't have done it.  Timo Armoo: [01:07:28 - 01:07:28] That's good.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:07:28 - 01:08:06] But you pushed me and you encouraged me and I'm very grateful because it is, I feel, the best way to do it, the most efficient way to do it, and it gives me enormous satisfaction. And looking back, I definitely can see how I had these different circles and I've been growing out of myself, out of my family, into this community. And it's okay. Hopefully I'll care about the whole universe soon when I anyway, let's get back to you. It's your interview talking about your fitness and health. How do you think about that?  Timo Armoo: [01:08:06 - 01:08:33] I think that is one of the most important parts of living. People say health is wealth, and it sounds very much like just an Instagram quote, but actually health is truly wealth. And so for me, it's very important that I look physically in shape, but it's something that I've always done. And I think it started off just being that I just did not want to be fat, quite frank.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:08:33 - 01:08:34] Fair enough.  Timo Armoo: [01:08:34 - 01:08:44] Yeah. And then I thought, actually it's also a challenge in the same sense of a business is a challenge. So this is physical challenge.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:08:44 - 01:08:54] Let's go back to that moment when you had just sold the company. You were excited. Do you have any idea what you wanted to do then with your life?  Timo Armoo: [01:08:54 - 01:09:00] I think one of my biggest regrets was that I had no clue what I wanted to do after I sold the company.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:09:00 - 01:09:01] Why was it a regret?  Timo Armoo: [01:09:01 - 01:09:33] Because I think I then ended up spending a lot of time being very aimless and thinking, is that it? Now what? And that was a massive challenge. I still don't quite know what I want to do, but at the very least, with the stuff I'm doing with content, with the people I meet in, with the networking, I feel like I'm opening up myself to some kind of randomness. But shortly afterwards, when I had absolutely no clue, it was actually a very daunting time.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:09:33 - 01:09:36] Is it because you put a lot of pressure on yourself that you should know?  Timo Armoo: [01:09:36 - 01:09:46] Well, I think it's because I didn't envision a life after I had quote unquote made it. I just thought, well, that's it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:09:46 - 01:09:48] Happily thereafter, yeah.  Timo Armoo: [01:09:48 - 01:10:03] I didn't envision what I want to do family wise. I didn't envision what actually really excites me. I had one sole focus and once I'd achieved it, I didn't quite know what's next.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:10:03 - 01:10:19] But don't you think it makes a lot of sense? Because if you didn't have that focus, then you wouldn't have achieved what you wanted to achieve. Maybe the time is now to do that introspection, now that you can afford it financially and time wise, now is the time to do it. Nothing to regret, really.  Timo Armoo: [01:10:19 - 01:10:53] I agree with you. And to be honest, there's a bunch of things that you have said in this interview, in this conversation, and a few times I've had lunch that have had me, that have implemented some guard rules for me to think about that. And you're 100% right. It is one of those things where if you didn't have that soul focus and intensity, you would not have been in this position. So now that you are in this position, you can now afford to do the thinking.  And I'm excited about it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:10:53 - 01:10:56] Have you tried meditation or silent retreats?  Timo Armoo: [01:10:56 - 01:11:13] I haven't, and I'm really down for it. Maybe we can talk offline about it, but I'll be really down for it. It's something that I've wanted to explore. I just haven't found the right people or been in the right surroundings to really do it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:11:13 - 01:11:20] It just seems like you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself and that's a way to explore that probably.  Timo Armoo: [01:11:23 - 01:11:27] I think a part of it also. It comes from not having siblings. Right.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:11:27 - 01:11:31] Okay, let's blame the parents. That's always my favorite thing to do.  Timo Armoo: [01:11:31 - 01:12:09] It comes from not having siblings. And so I have always been self reliant. It comes from, as I mentioned, my dad passing away and feeling this desire that I had to do something important. It comes from mum, and I don't have the easiest relationship and just feeling the need of, okay, I have to rely on myself. And so if I then peer into the future as to what that future looks like, I'm like, okay, well, you're going to design that future, nobody else.  And so because of that, I am seeking to find some good answers.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:12:09 - 01:12:19] It looks like there is some healing that can be done for your soul. I think it's going to be a wonderful period in your life right now, figuring things out.  Timo Armoo: [01:12:19 - 01:12:20] Amen.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:12:20 - 01:12:30] Okay. You don't know generally what you want to do next, what's on your plate in terms of immediate things, because I know you, you always have lots of plans.  Timo Armoo: [01:12:31 - 01:12:54] So earlier I said that's one thing I've been doing, is creating social content online since the start of the year. That seems to have been taken off considerably well, so a couple of things. I have this TV show with a TV network. I have a book that I have just signed an agent for, and lots of publishers are fighting over the book.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:12:54 - 01:12:56] Which, yeah, I heard.  Timo Armoo: [01:12:57 - 01:13:33] I also have just really been enjoying new formats and new social content that we've been putting out. I take a lot of pride in coming up with new innovative things. Yeah, book, TV show, the speaking engagement stuff is like doing very well, but that's something that I've always done for a while. I think overall, just all the opportunities that come as a consequence of building a personal brand online, or building an audience online, or building a valuable audience online as well, is very, very powerful. And so I'm excited by that.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:13:33 - 01:13:39] So basically, you know that you want to build a personal brand. You just don't know why quite yet.  Timo Armoo: [01:13:39 - 01:14:06] Yeah, I think the short term thing is having a personal brand, to me, is such a massive cheat code. In this new era of business, you have an audience already. You're able to get into things because of your audience. People know you for your expertise, and that makes things significantly easier to do anything. And so for me, it's like, if you have the opportunity to build that audience, why would you not do so, especially with something that you enjoy?  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:14:06 - 01:14:24] For the benefit of our audience, we have lots of people who are thinking what to do and they are flirting with the idea of building a personal brand. What would your advice be? How to start. If you have no experience, what's the easiest way people like us to start?  Timo Armoo: [01:14:25 - 01:17:51] So I think there are probably three steps to this. The first one is to not commit to building a personal brand for a long period of time, because actually it can be quite daunting if you think, okay, this is now who I have to be. I now have to be a social media personality. I now have to be a personal brand. The first thing is, I would say, just do it for three months.  And then at the end of three months, if you enjoy it, do it more. If you don't enjoy it, then you say, at least I tried it. The second thing is to figure out what is your competitive advantage in the marketplace. So, for example, I sat down and I had a sheet of paper and I wrote what makes Timo unique? And I came up with a whole host of different things, right?  Like being a black guy, being in south London, being someone who had grown up in Ghana for ten years, being someone who did enjoy, like, jazz, classical music, opera, but also hip hop and rap, right? Being someone who had built a business in an industry which is not deep tech or anything like that. It's just like an advertising software business. Most people can do that. Building a business in an industry that people understood like social media industry. So there's all these facets that make me unique. And then as a consequence of that, I then started to put in different frameworks and narratives based off that. So that's the second bit, like really trying to understand what would make you unique in the marketplace. And then the third thing is to actually lower the barrier of success. So this was something that I intentionally did where I said, all right, when I start creating content, the barrier is going to be, can this crack 2000 views? Okay, cool, can this crack 5000 views? Okay, cool, can this crack 10,000 views? So incrementally I kept improving. And I think because I saw that rapid improvement every single week, and now we're hitting like 100,000 views, half a million views on content. Then I'm like, oh, okay, now it's working. And now the bar is, can this crack half a million views? But if basically I'd started off by just saying, all right, we want to make things viral, we want to make half a million views. We want to make a million view video. Absolutely no way would I have been encouraged to keep doing it. Because at the beginning of anything, you're not that good, right? At the beginning, I would often say to my team, I want us to look at this video, and in six months, look and say, what a shit's video. And the funny thing is, yesterday we're looking at a video from ages ago. Like, that's a shit's video. The Hulk is rubbish. There's no payoff, there's no reward, it's a rubbish video.  But at that time, we're like, oh, this is a sick video. And so I think those three things of a actually commit to just a short period of time because I think the thing that throws off people is that they feel like now they have to have a new identity as a personal brand, as a content creator. Second one is to actually really figure out what your zone of competence and your zone of genius is. And then you build up narratives of that because there's always an audience for uniqueness. And then the third thing is actually to set a low bar for success, because by doing that, you'll be encouraged every single day to see as the numbers go higher and higher.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:17:51 - 01:18:00] And then you choose the correct platform depending on that image or that story you created, where it would be received properly.  Timo Armoo: [01:18:00 - 01:19:19] Right, exactly. So, for example, we are bringing out a newsletter, but we didn't do that for quite a while because I actually hate writing. I passionately hate just like, sitting there and typing and typing and typing. Right. But I love talking and I love video and I love the visual storytelling. And so because of that, I then set it on a short form video, which is like Instagram and TikTok YouTube shorts. There are some people who are listening to this, who are like, actually, they are really in depth thinkers and they're able to get out their narratives and the story and the edge. They're able to get it out through words. Therefore, you should write a newsletter. You should write on LinkedIn. So I think you're right that you apply what your competitive strengths are to something because so many people would ask me, why don't you have a newsletter? Or you're missing out on a newsletter? And I'd say, cool. But also I would focus on the thing that I really enjoy and I'd grow that really big. So then if I want to launch a newsletter now, I'm launching it to like half a million people. And not just like video. I have 20,000 here and news as I have 5000 here and this. I have 3000 here. No, actually focus on the thing that you have an edge in. Really make it big. And then on the top of that, it's when you can start to build other things.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:19:19 - 01:19:23] What are some non obvious ways to monetize a personal brand?  Timo Armoo: [01:19:24 - 01:20:31] Non obvious speaking engagements counts as non obvious? I guess so. Okay, so speaking engagements are non obvious. I'd say consultant stuff is non obvious. By that, I mean, it's not directly from the platform, but it's because people see your expertise and then they ask you. And then probably for me, the most lucrative is actually, like, getting into investment deals. I got into a number of very lucrative deals because basically, for a number of months, someone sees me constantly showing up on their LinkedIn and constantly showing up on their Instagram and constantly showing up on their YouTube and going, this guy knows what he's talking about. And so as a consequence of that, they say, right, for our next partner is for our next days, for our next. That he doesn't need to put in money, actually, we just want him on the cap table, and we'll just give him 100 grand worth of shares, 200 grand worth of shares, because we know this is a guy that can add value in other ways. So those would probably be a three, as I think about it.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:20:31 - 01:20:34] Brilliant. Timo, this has been absolutely amazing.  Timo Armoo: [01:20:35 - 01:20:36] Yeah, it's been good.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:20:36 - 01:20:40] I'm almost out of question. I'll just ask you one final question.  Timo Armoo: [01:20:40 - 01:20:41] Sure.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:20:41 - 01:20:43] How do you want to be remembered?  Timo Armoo: [01:20:43 - 01:20:45] I don't care about being remembered.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:20:45 - 01:20:48] I love it. You're the first person who says that.  Timo Armoo: [01:20:48 - 01:21:04] I don't care about being remember. Once I die, I'm gone and I don't really care. And I think there is so much pressure that people put on themselves to do something that makes them remembered, but it doesn't matter.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:21:04 - 01:21:09] Fair enough. Thank you so much. Such a pleasure. It always is.  Timo Armoo: [01:21:09 - 01:21:10] That was fun.  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:21:10 - 01:21:10] Thank you.  Timo Armoo: [01:21:10 - 01:21:11] That felt like a therapy session. See less