Seven years after stepping away from his highly successful business, Kunal Tulsiani has gained profound personal insights into purpose, meaning, and fulfillment. In this episode, he shares how these insights now direct and drive his post-exit journey. He also offers actionable advice for you and me to live a more meaningful life.

What We Discussed:

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:03: Kunal's Insights to Purpose, Meaning and Fulfillment

00:01:03: Meeting with Kunal

00:01:15: Did Money Make You Happy?

00:01:23: Who Are You and What's Your Purpose?

00:01:38: Most Important Human Character Traits

00:02:10: How Do You Want to be remembered?

00:02:19: Choosing People to Surround Yourself With

00:02:41: Daily Routine

00:03:12: Business Life and Routine

00:04:04: Insights on the Unusual Regime and Business Journey

00:05:20: Desire for Business

00:06:21: Setting up an Ikea Assembly Business

00:07:55: Transition to Real Estate

00:09:16: Focus and Growth in Business

00:09:57: Challenges in Business Journey

00:13:28: Transition from Selfish to Unselfish to Selfless

00:17:14: Lessons from the Nightclub

00:18:35: Understandings from Vedanta Treatises and Applying them to Life

00:19:29: Insights on Self Development.

00:20:29: Discovery of philosophy

00:20:49: Perception of wealth and duty

00:21:16: Growing business with spirituality

00:23:00: Teaching philosophy

00:23:27: Organizing family office

00:24:21: Post-business plans

00:26:37: Finding Balance in Desire for Business and Self-Actualisation

00:27:52: Conflict Between Desire for Wealth and Spirituality

00:34:13: Discussion on spirituality

00:36:31: Analogies for understanding philosophy and spirituality

00:37:22: Philosophy and Self-Reflection

00:39:52: Stages of Spiritual Development

00:44:04: A Journey of Philosophy and Mentorship

00:47:10: Investing with Impact

00:50:37: Self Discovery and Purifying Intentions

00:55:31: Being Charitable and Self-Discipline

00:56:17: Discussion on the Philosophy of Intellect and Mind

01:03:05: Importance of Customer Focus for Business Success

01:07:21: Pursuing a Fulfilled Life

01:09:30: Balancing Giving and Self-Care

01:13:45: Defining Fulfillment and Meditation

01:14:37: Thoughts on Silent Retreats

01:15:58: Philosophy and Recommendations

01:16:56: Suggestions on Reading and Practicing

01:17:55: Conclusion and Thanks

Kunal Tulsiani. Post-Exit Spiritual Growth: Finding New Purpose.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:00:00 - 00:00:03]

Root cause of any agitation. You have guaranteed it's going to be relating to yourself.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:03 - 00:00:23]

Kunal Tulsiani. Seven years after stepping away from his highly successful business Kunal has gained profound personal insights into purpose, meaning and fulfillment. In this episode, he shares how these insights now direct and drive his post exit journey. He also offers actionable advice for you and me to live a more meaningful life.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:00:23 - 00:00:56]

If you die with money in the bank, you've basically wasted life energy. Your happiness should not be dependent on anything outside of your control. You should be thinking, what can I do for you? Rather than what can I get from you? I see people going to charity auctions and they're putting their hand up 20,000 for this or 30,000 for this.

Have they checked if their drivers had dinner? Why does one person smokes a cigarette and absolutely loves it? Another person can't stand the smell of smoke. If the cigarette has happiness, why wouldn't it give happiness to both people? It's the same with everything in the world.

It's not the world that has happiness. It's actually how we relate to it.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:03 - 00:01:12]

I'm so happy to see you here today because you've been an inspiration for me for years, as you know. So I'm extremely happy. I can share some of your wisdom with my audience today.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:01:12 - 00:01:15]

Absolute pleasure being here. Thanks for the invitation.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:15 - 00:01:16]

Did money make you happy?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:01:16 - 00:01:16]

Yes.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:17 - 00:01:17]

In what way?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:01:18 - 00:01:22]

It gave me the ability to not think about it anymore.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:23 - 00:01:24]

Who are you?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:01:24 - 00:01:28]

Who am I? I am pure consciousness.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:28 - 00:01:31]

Beautiful. What's your purpose?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:01:31 - 00:01:35]

My purpose is to find out my true nature.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:36 - 00:01:36]

What is money?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:01:36 - 00:01:37]

Energy.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:38 - 00:01:43]

You're brilliant. What are the most important human character traits?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:01:43 - 00:02:09]

Most important human character traits? Unselfishness. Being grateful. And love. Unconditional love.

Because keeping your heart open is really important. And I think if you love conditionally, some things are going to open your heart. Some things are going to close your heart. Unconditional means keeping an open heart all the time. So I'd say these are the top three.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:10 - 00:02:11]

How do you want to be remembered?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:02:11 - 00:02:12]

By who?

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:12 - 00:02:16]

Anyone. Whoever remembers you.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:02:17 - 00:02:19]

Somebody who brought them a little bit of peace.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:19 - 00:02:22]

How do you choose people you surround yourself with?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:02:22 - 00:02:30]

I look for higher values. So either people who have high values or are aspiring to higher values.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:30 - 00:02:33]

What would be the highest values?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:02:33 - 00:02:34]

Those top three.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:36 - 00:02:40]

Okay, fair enough. Kunal. What time do you wake up in the morning?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:02:41 - 00:02:45]

So my routine generally is about 4:45.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:45 - 00:02:46]

Why?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:02:47 - 00:03:12]

So when I was 22 years old, I started studying avidanta. It's basically the Vedas, the oldest philosophy we know about known to mankind. And they say a sathwick time is between four and 06:00 a.m. It's when your mind is most poised and calm and objective. So that's the time I like to study philosophy, and then I start my day.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:03:12 - 00:03:18]

But that's my routine sometimes, obviously, if I have had a late night out dinner.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:03:18 - 00:03:25]

You're a fun person. You go out. I know. So it doesn't seem to affect your social life that much.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:03:25 - 00:03:26]

No. Yeah, absolutely.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:03:27 - 00:03:28]

How does the rest of the day look for you?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:03:28 - 00:03:50]

I'll wake up, I'll study for an hour, shower, change, have my meetings. My most important meetings I'll have in the morning. Once I finish those, then I'll go to the gym and have my lunch, take a little afternoon nap, and then have my afternoon, which is I spend in my office.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:03:51 - 00:03:53]

So for how many years you've been doing this?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:03:53 - 00:03:58]

It's been about 18 years now. Yeah, it's coming up to 18 years.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:03:58 - 00:04:04]

What do you think this quite unusual regime gave you during those 18 years?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:04:04 - 00:05:20]

It's interesting because I think so I'd met this guru who basically said, move to India and study this philosophy full time. And I said, well, my desire for business is too much, so I can't do that in my early 20s. She said, okay, just do whatever you want. Drink, smoke, party, do whatever you want. Just make sure that you study between four and six.

So I said, okay, I can do that. But actually, when you wake up at that time, it means you have to sleep at a certain time. It means you're eating at a certain time. So, basically, first of all, it gave me discipline. And I know at about 09:00 p.m.

If I'm having a really interesting conversation, then I'll stay. But if it's not more valuable than my mornings, I'll be home in bed by 10:00 but, yes, I'd say discipline that time in the morning just gives me objectivity, right? So I take my mind out of the world. I contemplate on big theories. I guess it's like when you take a boat, you take it out of water and you have to clean, then put it back in.

That's what I'm doing in the morning. So I'm sort of resetting my priorities, resetting my goal. Yeah. And it gives me that throughout the day. I can carry that through the day.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:05:20 - 00:05:28]

So you mentioned your desire for business was too strong. Let's talk about that. Talk about your path in business.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:05:28 - 00:06:21]

So it probably starts with my parents. My dad, they came here from India 50 plus years ago with nothing. He started on Petico Lane market, an electronic stall, and then he grew that to one shop and then five shops and sort of retail chain. So that work ethic sort of came from them. I studied business management, I went to boarding school.

I came out, I studied business management at Westminster University. And during that I was doing a coursework on Ikea, and I saw that the amount of people that go to Ikea and think they know how to assemble the furniture, basically, they go on a Friday. By Tuesday, the kids have nowhere to know. The bunk beds are all over the floor and they just want to get someone to fix it. So I immediately hired some builders.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:06:21 - 00:07:55]

I put them on mopeds and I started an Ikea assembly business. I then had a good friend of mine whose father, he's a russian oligarch, he wanted some cupboards fitted in his office. So I went, we fitted those, and at the same point, at the same time, Ikea launched the same service as me, which is doing very well, by the way. So he said, why don't you do something with my son? And so we set up a company which would integrate audiovisual into smart homes, basically.

Unfortunately, my friend had a very bad car accident and he was over the drink drive limit and he got six and a half years in prison, which was crazy. I mean, Oxford graduate, like, super smart, really bright guy. And just one mistake and he was a piece of prison. So I was working from their office. So the father couldn't really speak English.

He kind of, kind of made me take over the obligations of his son, which was not. There was not a learning curve, it was a straight line because he didn't speak English. So sometimes the banks would come and they'd be talking to me in English and he translated and turn up. So this was sort of around 2005, 2006, and coming to 2007, it's too much because obviously he's used to having 500 plus staff and there was just me. So very difficult.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:07:55 - 00:09:15]

I left in 2007, going into 2008, and obviously it was a financial crisis hit. So thankfully, I sort of had my contacts and by that time I had some investors and I got into real estate. I actually had to get planning permission for a little extension. And when I got the planning permission, I realized, wow, just with a drawing and an application, you can make a huge amount of value creation with not very much investment. So that's what I did.

And we did police stations. We were buying met police stations because they have that area in the middle where the police car would have to drive in there are residential areas, so we'd buy those, get planning permission to convert them to houses, and then we'd sell it on and buy the next one. And so far, we've unlocked over a billion pounds worth of value in central London. Through police stations? Well, no, not through police stations.

We did 1 million sqft in Vauxhall, which was a 200 bedroom hotel, 279 apartment scheme. And then, for instance, then I had that exit. And I've been investing. I set up a family office because my parents got old, so I was sort of managing their assets and my own. And I've been investing in.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:09:16 - 00:09:51]

It's interesting because in the Gita he talks about in chapter three, it's about karma yoga. Karma yoga is about having an ideal outside of your self centered interest. So I've concentrated on impact investing. I don't believe in charity because I think charity is great, but every time they need to raise funds, they have to go with their begging bowl to try and raise money. And I feel that if you can set up a business which is impactful, which is evergreen, so it's funding itself and it's constantly giving back to society.

So I'm looking for those businesses.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:09:51 - 00:09:56]

Let's go back a little bit, and I want you to talk about that big building you did.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:09:57 - 00:10:54]

Sounds a lot easier than it was. I was again 28 years old, and it was an advertising site in Vauxhall. And I basically went for planning permission for these two towers. I did a joint venture with the landowner, so they put their land in because they weren't allowed to spend their money on speculative development because it's a pension fund. So I raised the money and we basically got planning permission.

And as we were going for that, the whole area was coming up. The american embassy came in and a lot of nine L's whole vasti power station now Apple, I don't know if they're the head offices there. So the whole area sort of came up at the same time. But we were the first ones to go in for an application on that new plan that the council had put out.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:55 - 00:10:56]

When you sold that project.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:10:57 - 00:10:57]

Yes.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:57 - 00:11:01]

How did you feel about it if you go back to that moment?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:11:02 - 00:11:44]

So there were quite dark days, so we had to appeal, so we were closed. And when I was looking for funding, everyone was like, canal people aren't even investing in developed buildings. That's 2012 financial crisis. Nobody believed in this pipe dream. So it was very difficult.

And again, I go back to my philosophy of reading in the morning and the Gita, which is basically a fight to war. And Krishna was advising one army, basically, on how to fight the war, a righteous war. And so I was taking my learnings from there and I was applying it to everything I was doing.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:11:44 - 00:11:52]

Give me an example. I want an illustration, like, what specific story from the Dante helped you in a specific business situation?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:11:52 - 00:13:08]

So, I mean, for example, it says when you meet someone, you should be thinking, what can I do for you? Rather than what can I get from you? So the attitude of what can I do for you? Because obviously I was young and I was in these big meetings. I was the youngest person at the table.

It was very much, well, what can I do for you? So when I'd meet the council, they'd be like, what do you guys want? What can we do for you? And then you're kind of on the same page as everyone. You're listening to them.

When I was meeting the landowner and I was like, what is it that I can do for you? What do you need? And they would tell me what they needed. So it was just finding it what everyone else needed. But the main thing is I wasn't getting paid because there was no money.

So it was years of me having to really put in effort without getting anything in return and not knowing if I was going to get anything in return. And that's what kept me going, was just like, okay, what's my obligation? 16,000 jobs are going to be created. It's homes. It's a landmark for the country.

So let me not think about myself, because if I thought about myself, I would have stopped it a long time ago. So. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure about this. So I'm just going to step back.

So it was, the whole thing really was what kept me going.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:13:08 - 00:13:27]

I find it absolutely fascinating because in your 20s, it's perfectly normal to be quite selfish. And you at that time, so early, were so not selfish already. So tell me about how you exited that project when it was over and you were free from it.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:13:28 - 00:16:29]

Yeah, I think the whole crux of philosophy, if you were told, but ask me, what is it? In a nutshell, it is going from selfish to unselfish to selfless, right? So I think if you understand the concept behind it, it will give you more of an idea of how I got to where I got to. So it's easier for you to solve your friends problems than it is your own, because when you're thinking of someone else, your mind is less agitated, you're more objective, you can think clearer, you can make better quality decisions. That's why the answer is in you.

You can use it for your friend, whereas for yourself, when you're thinking about yourself, your mind's really agitated. You can't think very clearly. So for me, it was like, well, the more unselfish I am, the more peace of mind I'm going to have. And that's why, obviously, to a limit. If you go too far, you start resenting.

It's a limit, but it's a slow 1%, sort of better every day. When I was thinking about my exit, it was not, again, not about what I'm going to get out of it or what's going to happen. And I think as you get to that point, it's like, okay, now you get a certain amount of responsibility. Now there's the response, okay, so if I, at the end of it, had my exit and then was like, okay, let me go and spend this money on myself. I know that's not going to bring me happiness.

I've seen enough people with money who aren't happy because that's my interest. I've asked them, and I can see they're always searching for the next thing. It's like chasing a mirage. So for me, it was to continue. My goal is self realization.

Right? If you look at Mazo's hierarchy of need, the very top is self actualization, reaching your full potential as a human being. So self development has always been my goal, and I know I'll never reach it, because self development. Self development, it's a process. It's a process, yeah.

It's a process that can always be developed, and you can always grow towards it. So all I wished was for that site to be sold at the time. So I had my exit and wanted to continue pursuing my spiritual goal because this was part of my journey. Everything has to be aligned. So karma yoga is a way of reaching the self through action, right?

So my business was my karma, and so I continued. So I got married in 2018. My wife was a student of Adanta. I met her at the Nashville in India, and we got married. She came to London.

She's a sound healer, Vedic sound healer. So I've just continued sticking to my principles. Thank God I have them, because there's so many opportunities where you can go off the rails. It's a lot of responsibility, it's a lot of money, and you need to have those values.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:16:29 - 00:16:45]

But it didn't happen on day one when you just started your business that you already had all this knowledge and all this spirituality. So if you go back to when you just started your business. What was the motivation for you?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:16:45 - 00:17:04]

Oh, to make my, the whole thing for my parents know, money. People don't respect you if you don't have. Don't you need the know? It was very had, I was living in central London. I had very wealthy friends.

It was all about just.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:17:04 - 00:17:14]

So tell me a little bit about that time, because I want you to help me explain to our audience how you developed over time into where you are today.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:17:14 - 00:18:35]

Yeah. So obviously I came out of boarding, had exposed, and moved to central London. So I hadn't had exposure to the nightclubs and to the, it was very sort of in a bubble. And when I came to central London and I met some very wealthy arab friends of mine who just wanted to party every day. They just want to go out.

And that was what life was about. It was about going to having nice things and girls and just having a great time, which I realized. I went to a nightclub. I had to get my credit card the next day because I'd left it behind. And I went and I walked in, I was like, this is just disgusting.

It just smells bad. If you ever go to a nightclub, the next day it's a flash in the pan. And I realized I was like, I want to spend time developing my day life, not my nightlife. There's no point being having the best table in the club, because the next day you wake up with a hangover and nothing really to show for it, apart from a long receipt out of your pocket. So I saw at that time that that wasn't bringing me happiness, and I was chasing something.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:18:35 - 00:18:38]

So when I read the Vedanta treaties, this amazing book.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:18:38 - 00:18:40]

And I did read it. Amazing.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:18:42 - 00:19:29]

It just talks about the self, and it talks about, why does one person smoke a cigarette and absolutely loves it? Another person can't stand the smell of smoke. If the cigarette has happiness, why wouldn't it give happiness to both people? So it's the same with everything in the world. It's not the world that has happiness.

It's actually how we relate to it. How do you catch your shadow? Put your hand on your head? It's all about self development. Even if you say life, you have you and you have the world.

We're constantly proving the world. But if we can improve ourselves a little bit, every experience becomes that much better. So by developing yourself, actually, you're developing every experience. And when I read this and I read this, and I was like, actually, that really resonates with me. It works.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:19:29 - 00:20:09]

And that's when I started sort of studying it deeper, and that's when my business started. Dealing with my friend in jail and dealing with his father and their responsibilities. That came to me very early. I was just applying it and my discipline and my perseverance and everything that I was studying. As I said, I was slowly getting better and better and better.

And everything was growing, growing with me. Everything was just falling into place. It was like when you wake up with nature, you're sort of up, and the birds start waking up and the sun starts rising, and you're in line with nature. You're flowing. I was in flow.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:20:09 - 00:20:15]

Despite all the challenges and visiting your friend in jail and all of it.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:20:15 - 00:20:24]

Yeah, it was all part of obligation. Like, what do I need to do for you? What do I need to do for him? What does he need? It was literally just so.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:20:24 - 00:20:28]

You were already thinking that way at that time, in your early 20s.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:20:29 - 00:20:49]

That's when I came across this. I came across a philosophy. I went to India. I was supposed to go to a wedding, and the groom broke his legs. I ended up going to Ananda in the Himalayas.

It was a spa. And there I met a teacher. And when I met the teacher, he gave me the book, and then I started studying. And then I had classes in London, and that was in my early 20s.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:20:49 - 00:21:07]

So when you first had this idea that you wanted to earn money and wanted to go into business, it was before you discovered Vedanta. Then you discovered Vedanta and you started thinking more, it's my duty. Right. And seeing your business through the values of Vedanta, is that correct?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:21:07 - 00:21:08]

That's exactly it, yeah.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:21:09 - 00:21:15]

Okay. But then you left the russian oligarchs. Oligarch. And you started your own property business.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:21:15 - 00:21:16]

Yes.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:21:16 - 00:21:24]

How did your spirituality grow together with your business at that time, when you were already your own man?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:21:24 - 00:22:41]

One of the concepts, or main concepts, is desires, right? So the more desires you have, the more agitated your mind is. And what we do is we keep picking up new desires. So I want to buy a house, and you get the house.

Now I need furniture, and now I need this and I need that. So there's a constant. We keep adding desires. And the idea is to say, well, you should reduce your desires as much as you can. Not stifle them, not be, not frustrate yourself, but just to a point where don't add new stuff.

Imagine you put all your desires in a bucket today and just slowly work on reducing what's in that bucket. Don't keep adding things to it. So for me, I had to think about that. Like, what are my core desires? What are the things which I'm going to work on?

See your vastana, your innate nature. So what is that? And everyone's born with a different age. Somebody might be a musician. Somebody might be born with a desire for speaking or for theatrical performance, whatever it might be.

Mine was for business. So I said, okay, let me focus on my core desire, which was business. And that's when I just put everything and focused it in one direction. And I think if you focus anything in one direction, it gets a lot of power. Light in one direction has a lot of power.

Wind in one direction has a lot of power.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:41 - 00:22:41]

Absolutely.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:22:41 - 00:22:48]

Water in one direction. So I just focused all my energy on emptying my bucket.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:49 - 00:22:56]

So you focused all your energy on your business. You achieved amazing success in it, and then you sold it.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:22:56 - 00:22:56]

Yes.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:57 - 00:23:00]

What were you thinking you wanted to do next? At that point?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:23:00 - 00:23:12]

At that time, I actually wanted to teach the philosophy. So what I'd learned what I had, because I believe the best way to learn is actually through teaching.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:23:12 - 00:23:12]

Teaching.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:23:13 - 00:23:27]

I think you retain 90% of what you teach and only 10% of what you read. So I like that. I like talking to people. I like being challenged on it, not only teaching, but just discussing. So that's what I wanted to do.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:23:27 - 00:24:09]

I wanted to become a philosopher. And so I realized that, okay, if I want to have free time to be able to do that, I need to get my finances in order. I had to organize myself, so I had to learn about wealth management. I joined Tiger 21. I was already a YPO member, and I needed to work out how I can organize my family office as such.

That will fuel, so I don't have to worry about it anymore, and I can really focus on giving, on continuing my journey to try and be more and more unselfish. Sometimes you go backwards. It's a challenge.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:24:10 - 00:24:21]

Yeah, I guess going back to Maslow Pyramid, you were basically focusing on building your foundation, your safety, and security, so you could focus on self actualization. Exactly. I absolutely get it.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:24:21 - 00:25:13]

Yeah. So that was my thing. And everyone says after your exit, don't do anything for a year. You make the most stupid mistakes. So I didn't, which was lucky for me, because by the time we had the final payment, it's 2018.

So I'm learning about equities, and I'm learning about. And then we had COVID, so I didn't do anything stupid, and I changed the name of the family office, impact assets. So I constantly think about, okay, what's impact. I want to be able to look back in ten years and not just have made money, but I want to be able to what is the difference I've made?

How many lives have I impacted? Because I think that's what for me now, even looking about my property business, when I drive past some of the buildings that have been built, I'm like, oh, wow, people are living there. You've created homes for people that's going to be there for, hopefully a very long time.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:25:13 - 00:25:21]

So in your impact investing, how do you balance pragmatism and spirituality?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:25:21 - 00:26:37]

Again, it's like math, right? If you've got your core values, you understand, okay, you know that I'm trying to do this for the benefit of other people. What's the benefit of others? But as I said, it shouldn't be charity. This money should come back and go to the next thing.

So it needs to be done really responsibly. And again, karma yoga, which, as it says chapter three of the Gita, this is all he's talking about, right? When you act, you have three types of yoga, right? You have karma yoga, which is action. You have bhakti, which is devotion, which is basically being grateful and having some sort of a thank, being grateful for whatever you've been given.

So today we're breathing, and we've got our blood pressures managed, and everything is what our blood systems are working. So actually, just having some devotion to something that's providing this to us. And Jnana yoga. Jnana yoga is the philosophy is the study of self development. So my karma is to work, and that's what I do.

So every situation I'm looking at, okay, how is this going to help people? And that's part of my way of getting to my goal.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:26:37 - 00:26:54]

When I first met you, you were actually at the crossroads. I remember it very well, because you were thinking, should I dedicate my life to philosophy, or should I do business at the same time? So it sounds like you found that balance and you found how to do both.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:26:54 - 00:27:52]

Yeah. So, as I said, it was sort of let the family office run itself, and they give me time to teach and have philosophical discussions, but I realized I'm not using that's not my true nature. So my nature for business is still there. So even though I've had my exit, I still have.

I'm in my nature for business. I'm saying, how can I apply that nature? And I see it as one road. I don't see them as two roads. I see it as one road.

And going down that road business. I can help founders. I sit on the board of the companies and I give valuable insights. I believe from my perspective, and have discussions. I mean, like discussions we have and discussions with people who talking about philanthropy and or talking about charity.

So it's all part of the same thing.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:27:52 - 00:28:00]

Do you think there is a conflict between a desire to earn money and be successful in materialistic terms and being spiritual?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:28:00 - 00:28:44]

I believe in order to give, you need to be full. Right. If I feel empty, I need to take. If I feel full, I can give. So there's an imaginary void of emptiness, right?

So you have this feeling that, oh, I'm not full, I'm empty. Which is what the philosophy is. It's telling you. It's explaining to your true nature, which is you are full. It's an imaginary void.

So that feeling of, I need to take, I need to do this, I need all these things. There should come a point, hopefully, where you feel full, which is why I say to people who's rich and who's poor, what's your definition of rich? Someone who's rich. It's a question to you.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:28:44 - 00:29:13]

My definition of rich? Well, it depends, I guess, if you are specifically asking about finances, it's very different from more philosophical definition. From philosophical definition, it means that it's somebody who actually really appreciates everything that life gives. I think that's the most important thing you would say, feeling gratitude for what this life gives us, and then we feel rich. It's a feeling.

It's objective.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:29:13 - 00:29:16]

And from a financial perspective?

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:16 - 00:29:39]

Well, for me, it's not having to worry about money too much. It's what you said before, when actually your finances are set enough for you to feel secure enough to be free to pursue what you really want to do, which is self actualization, in whatever form that particular person can decide to do it.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:29:39 - 00:30:18]

Which is absolutely spot on. But I'd say that if your desires are within your level of income, you're rich. If your desires are outside of your level of income, you're poor. So it's not about wealth management, it's about desire management. So it's about, okay, what is it that you desire?

What is it that you want? Make sure it's clear, right? Say, okay, I'm going to get to 100 million. After that, I don't need to make anymore. Get to 100, but don't get to 100, and move it to 200, and then move it to 300.

Because again, you're just chasing after something, a mirage.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:18 - 00:30:22]

Why do you think people get stuck in this chase in a mirage?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:30:22 - 00:31:18]

Because they believe it's there, right? What's a mirage? When. When you're thirsty in the desert and you see water, you get there and you put so much effort to get there, and now it's moved. So what are you going to do?

You're going to put more effort to get to the next one and it's moved and you just keep going until you realize actually it's not there. So it's about when do you understand that it's not there? And then when you can start looking internally to say, okay, what is it that I actually desire? Because you can give your people say, oh, I'm making my money. What are you doing it for?

I'm making it for my children. But you're not spending any time with your children. You're working all the time. So what are you going to do? You're going to leave them with loads of money and no values, right?

But maybe if you spent time with them more time, you can leave a little less money, but you leave them with values so they know how to manage that money. It's a little lopsided, and I think it's just that it's greed, it's cravings, and that's what causes a lot of agitation and ultimately leads to people being quite unhappy.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:31:19 - 00:31:47]

So let's do a quick case study. Two days ago, I talked to a friend of mine who sold his business for a large amount of money. And now he says, I do want to start another business because I don't think I have actually proved myself because I think it was mostly due to luck that I got successful the first time around. So I'm really driven to start a new business as soon as possible so I can prove myself. What do you tell that friend of mine?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:31:47 - 00:32:00]

Well, that's his desire, right? If he believes that, there's nothing you can say to him that's going to change his mind, right? That's his belief. And it's not for me to even say that he's right or wrong in that.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:32:00 - 00:32:08]

Do you think when he gets there and has another very successful business, do you think he'll feel satisfied?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:32:08 - 00:32:36]

Well, the question is, does he feel satisfied every day? Is it like when I get there, then I'll be happy? Or is it, I'm really happy and satisfied, and now I'm just going to do something that I love, which is building businesses. So that's the question. Ask him.

If you're saying, well, I'm unhappy, but if I start another business and I'm going to be ten years. And when I sell that one, I'm going to be happy. Then. Then I'd ask him to question. I'd question that again.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:32:36 - 00:32:53]

So it basically boils down to where that desire to do business comes from. Is it your nature and you want to self actualize through doing business? Or is it because you think that happiness happens in the future once you achieve.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:32:53 - 00:33:00]

Yeah. Are you doing it from a place of lack? Right? Or are you doing it, do you have a scarcity mentality or an abundance mentality?

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:33:00 - 00:33:03]

Let's talk about it for a second. How do you understand that?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:33:03 - 00:33:11]

Well, that's what, back to the point of if you feel that you're a little empty and you think this is going to fill you, it's not. Right?

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:33:11 - 00:33:11]

Yeah.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:33:11 - 00:34:13]

It just doesn't. Nothing external. Again, it's a shadow, right. There's nothing external that's going to fill you. It's an internal, it's understanding your true nature.

If everything is one, you're part of that oneness. It's like trying to explain to the, imagine a drop in the ocean, right? You're trying to explain to the drop, just dissolve yourself and you'll become the ocean. A drop saying, no, I'm an individual, right? This is me.

This is my. No, it's like explaining to that drop, just release your sense of individuality and you will become part of the totality because you are the ocean. But he believes he's a drop. And that is the process of education. Just relax.

Just become one with everything. And that's your true nature, right. So if you don't understand that, then you will keep searching and searching and searching externally, not knowing who you really are.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:34:13 - 00:34:21]

Why do you think so many post exit entrepreneurs are not open to talk about spirituality?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:34:21 - 00:35:41]

People talk about spirituality. People discuss philosophy. You ask them, do you believe in God? Do you not believe in God? If they don't believe in God, they've thought about it and they've decided they don't believe in God.

If they do believe in God, and maybe it's their religion. I think there's a big difference between religion and spirituality. I think all the religions have taken this philosophy and given out at different times to different groups of people. If you look at spirituality, and I think it's quite abstract. So it's about taking people from where they are.

It's like if I said to you, if you said to me, okay, where's the library? I'm looking for the library. And I said, it's next to the post office say, well, where's the post office? If you just go to the park, take a right. But how do I get to the park?

It's like if you leave your house, take a left, you're going to get to the park. Once I tell you how to get to the park, you'll know how to get to the post office, you'll know how to get to the. And you will know how to ultimately get to the library. But if I'm just talking abstract, it's not logical, it doesn't make sense. So it's about saying, okay, where are you now?

And slowly going step by step towards your true nature. And I think if you start talking too abstract about things, people just don't. They're just not interested in it. I think it loses its practical. Its practicality.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:41 - 00:36:30]

The reason I ask you that question is because of that drop versus ocean that you discussed before. Because when you were talking about it, I immediately thought, okay, that drop is holding on to its identity because it wants to have control over it and feel that this is the little world I control. And then I immediately thought, okay, isn't it very common for entrepreneurs to be control freaks? So once we are building that business being control freaks, we satisfy that desire for control, but then the business is gone and we don't have it anymore. We still want to control ourselves.

And I find that lots of people are very uncomfortable giving up that idea of control to grow spiritually.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:36:31 - 00:36:55]

It's interesting, I think that if you talk to somebody, for example, if we say, what's everyone's calling, true calling, so we won't say happiness, because happiness is maybe a fleeting emotion. But if you take a four foot spring, reduce it down to 1ft. What's happening to your hand? Top hand. If I've taken four foot spring, what's happening to your hand?

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:36:55 - 00:36:56]

Well, it's being pushed up.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:36:56 - 00:36:57]

Pressure, right?

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:36:57 - 00:36:57]

Yeah.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:36:57 - 00:37:00]

Reduce it. Increase it to 2ft. What's happening?

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:37:00 - 00:37:01]

Less pressure.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:37:01 - 00:37:04]

Less 3ft. Even less 4ft.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:37:04 - 00:37:05]

Almost none.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:37:05 - 00:37:22]

None, right? Because this is natural state. So I believe that everybody is trying to get back to a natural state, a true nature. Every river is leading to the ocean, right? Everybody is trying to get back to that place.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:37:22 - 00:39:52]

So they may say, I'm not interested in spirituality, but what are they interested? They're interested in getting back to the ocean. It's just about the road that they need to take to get there. It may be winding, it may go backwards, upwards, left, right. But ultimately it's going to lead to the ocean.

So if you can try and just direct them. So maybe go in this direction a little bit. A little bit of a push. And maybe I'm totally wrong, right? All the philosophies could be totally wrong, and everyone has their own individuality.

But if they were to ask me which. What I've done, and I can only tell you as far as I've got, is I can just say, well, maybe go in this direction, look towards this direction, which is, look, have more peace of mind. At least just try and be a little more unselfish. If you take a smoker again, right? A smoker.

He's sitting in his meeting. Cigarettes, he's sinking cigarettes, cigarette, cigarette. The mind is. Goes outside, he takes a drag. He's in bliss.

It might be for a second or two, but he's in bliss. So what's happened? What's the science behind that? So he had a desire for a cigarette, created an agitation. Agitation got really bad, and then he had a cigarette.

It was association of the agitation created that feeling of bliss, right? So we understand that desire creates agitation, and association of that desire creates happiness. So if we can, to the extent we can reduce our level of desire, we'll increase. It's inversely proportionate. We'll increase our level of peace of mind and more objectivity.

We can make better quality decisions. So if they can understand that, they say, okay, well, what do I really, really want? What is that guy, for example, really looking for? The entrepreneur who said it was just luck? What is it exactly that he's looking for, then he wants to prove it to himself.

It's just understanding what is that core desire and making sure that he can satisfy that, to reduce his level of mental agitation and have more peace of mind. And then hopefully get into a meditative state. Everything you're doing, doing calm and objective. And it's like when you pour water, if you're pouring water from a jug, if your hand is shaking, the water goes everywhere, right? But if your hand is still, you can pour it perfectly into the cup.

So it's the same with your mind, right? If your mind is calm, all your actions come out perfectly.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:52 - 00:40:42]

Can we talk about stages of spiritual development? I remember very well the conversation you and I had when I mentioned that having children pushed me very much out of my selfishness. And I suggested at that time that I felt that I was quite spiritually developed, thanks to my children, because I was so unselfish as a mother, sacrificing myself every day to my three children. And your reaction at the time really surprised me, because you basically said, oh, that's actually a very low level of spiritual development. And we argued a little bit.

And this is exactly when you gave me that book, Vedanta, which, of course, describes different levels of spiritual growth very well, but I'd love you to talk about it.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:40:42 - 00:40:51]

So, I mean, would you have the same attitude if they weren't your kids? The same attitude if it's someone else's child? Would you do the same thing for someone else's child?

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:40:52 - 00:40:52]

No.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:40:52 - 00:43:17]

Right. So it's the mindness in it, right? And it's that mindness, which is the selfishness. It's me, my family, my kids, my house, my business. That's within your sphere.

The idea is doing something outside of yourself, outside of your self centered interest. So things that don't have the may attached to it, holding the door open for somebody, letting someone go in traffic, those small things that you can do, which has no benefit to you whatsoever. That's why I think if you're doing something for yourself or you're doing something for your child, it's really you're doing it for yourself. It's just a version of you. And as you said to me, it's basically, I care for them more than I care for myself.

So it's just a version of you personified in another form. So obviously it's great, but your home should be the center of your affection, not the boundary. So start with yourself. Make sure you're okay, make sure your family are okay. And then how do we expand that?

How do we look at the community? How do we look at the country? How do we look at civilization? How do we look at all living beings? How do we keep evolving our eccentric circles?

That's why I said that to you at the time. So in the Gita, he talks about different levels of charity. It's great. Charity is great. Even the lowest level is better than no charity.

But the lowest form is economic. Right? So writing a check. So I can write a check to a charity. Yes.

It hurts for five minutes. It's okay then. A little higher than that is physical. So I could help you move house. If I come and help you actually physically move, that's higher.

Higher than that is emotional. So being there for someone, giving them emotional support. Higher than emotional is intellectual. So helping, they say, teach a man to fish. So actually applying yourself intellectually.

But he says the highest actually is self development. Why? So if you develop yourself, every situation you come into, every decision you make is going to be for the betterment of other people. So that's sort of the ladder of charity.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:43:17 - 00:43:25]

So it's okay to act in self interest because that benefits the rest of us.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:43:25 - 00:44:00]

It's about getting self knowledge, right? So self development. If I'm strong physically, then other people, I'm not a burden on other people, right? They tell you when you get on the aeroplane, put your mask on first before, even for the children, it's important. You have to make sure you're okay and you feel full and then you can give and you can serve.

So that's why it's important to understand your true nature, have these values, learn, understand yourself, have a correct way of thinking, and then for the benefit of.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:44:00 - 00:44:03]

Others, ultimately beautifully explained.

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:44:03 - 00:44:04]

Thanks.

Anastasia Koroleva: [00:44:04 - 00:44:14]

So let's go back to your life. So you sold your business, you had this idea that you really wanted to teach philosophy. So how did you go about it?

Kunal Tulsiani: [00:44:14 - 00:46:36]

As I said, it was teach it. Then I realized, well, I'll mentor. So I think talking to people who are quite old already are quite set in their ways. So I said, let me look at the next generation and let me have these discussions with them and have it more of a discussion. So I started mentoring the Yng, which is the kids of YPO's.

But I believe that actually if you can change the mind of a CEO, if a CEO has a value of unselfishness, that will filter down to his key management, that will go down into the business, those people will go home, talk to their spouses, teach their kids those values, and hopefully that kid will go and share with his friend on the playground. Right. So you can have maximum, I believe maximum impact is the people at the top. So that was my journey. So I've been as like conversations that you and I have had or anyone who's interested in self development or looking for some sort of direction, that's how I was doing it in one on one discussions, as I said, by investing in businesses I've invested in.

We have one of the largest security training provider companies in the UK. Get licensed. The founder came to me and said, look, I want to create an app. What's the app going to do? So they get a license, right?

Then they want to find jobs. They come for jobs. They don't come for just a license. So the app basically was to educate them. Educate a potential security guard.

He does his course, puts his license number in and then there's lots of jobs and his CV gets sent automatically. So I've taken somebody basically who doesn't have a license, give them a license, give them a job and now they're protecting society. Great. And that can just keep evolving. So those discussions, because I think now the church has kind of gone.

People used to go to Sunday school and they'd go to church on Sundays, and that's kind of been pushed aside. So where are people getting their values from today? From businesses. So what are your goals? What's your mission when you're a CEO?

But new, these millennials or even Gen Z, they're like, so what's the purpose of this business? Trying to get the values from the company. So I think if you can infuse these higher values in these companies, you're going to hopefully get the maximum results.